....That seems just batshit crazy enough to work...or fail miserably.

Amendment to my earlier post, I actually do agree with you. The response would be interesting at least. Sorry for the lack of any value to the first post, but I hadn't hit my 2nd wind yet.

This is the exact thing that bothers me about this whole mess....no matter what the Spurs do...the Spurs lose.....and all because of one player losing his cool...Yes the Suns complain and whine all series about the so-called "physical" play but no one in the media even mentions this and now it does not matter since Horry screwed it all up. That one incident has eclipsed the whole series and now solidifies the dirty label unfairly placed on the Spurs by the complaining Suns...F***'n Horry WHY WHY did you do this!! Spurs lose game 4 was not a big deal!!! My God I am gonna lose it!...ok thanks

Aaron I think you should run the team.  That is a fantastic idea.  This whole situation just blows and there is nothing we can do about it except for maybe that.  It just pisses me off that we are everyone's mortal enemy now and that all of a sudden we are a team full of dirty has-beens. This is really the leagues fault but it will be taken out on the Spurs.  We should sit Timmy and then try to run with them.  That would be a fun game to watch, but it won't happen.  I hope the league takes the brunt of it, I hope this situation turns around a bit, I even hope the game is close tonight but I just can't see how this can turn out good.

Take it further...play the Bench only. Just call it a coaching decision period. Stonewall the media.

I am surprised by Horry's elbow clip. (even tho I've seen much worse-every week by various players) But not by Horry. It kinda hurts my feelings. Where's the billion-dollar-smilin, multi-ring-wearin Dude?

I love watching the Spurs for exactly the so-called reasons people say they are 'boring, marshmellow, unexciting'.

My elderly parents have stopped watching alot of sports due to this type of thing and also the media churn. I have always held up the Spurs to them. As silly as it sounds, What am I going to tell my parents?

Having said that, another reason I watch the Spurs is their finesse at finding and controlling the thin line. Controlled aggression barely within the limits.  

Has anyone noticed any quotes from Horry? Hope he keeps quiet. A part of me just doesn't want him to give the obligatory apology.

Hope the only words from the Spurs about the Stoudemire and Diaw suspension are: "Wish they were playing" (stupid Stern)

A great side benefit of playing the bench only would be to get Ginoble back from wherever he is. I don't see him slipping alot in his overall play, but the missed shots have hurt. And we could've used his magic when Tim had 5 fouls.

I'm always a Spurs Fan, but not so freely joyous today.  

Don't forget: the Spurs are the better team. You know it. I know it. The Suns sure as hell know it. And there's only one way that an inferior team is going to beat the Spurs at this level: if they come out with a psychological edge and the Spurs come out back on their heels.

The Mavs could have easily beaten the Warriors, even without their so-called MVP, if they hadn't been completely psyched out by the GS fans and the go-to-hell way that the Warriors played. So wouldn't it have been worth it to Dallas to have made the Nowitski-for-psychological-advantage trade? Here the same situation applies - sure, it'll be nice to have Stoudewhiner bitching from the sidelines, but is it really worth facing a jacked-up and supremely motivated Nash, Marion etc. in front of a crowd that legitimately hates us? I say no.

I'd say we have a better chance of winning this game if Timmy DOES sit. The Suns are fighting their hearts out on the premise that they're the good guys, and that we're a dirty team. If we sit Timmy, not only do we officially get anointed as the MOST SPORTSMANLIKE TEAM IN HISTORY, we also take all their momentum away.

If we sit Timmy, do you honestly think that Manu doesn't go off for forty points? Do you honestly think that our defense doesn't come together to stifle the Suns completely - aided by the fact that the refs will be pretty much forced to swallow their whistles? Hey, with Timmy on the pine, our biggest concern is that Kurt Thomas or one of their other sub-scrub bigs becomes an offensive monster. Somehow I don't see it happening.

Only because it's Steve Nash and the Phoenix Suns is this whole thing such a big deal.  Was the foul excessive?  Yes.  Was it flagrant?  Yes.  Should Horry be suspended?  Yes.  However, people make it seem like it was done with the intention of injuring Nash or getting Stoudemire and Bell suspended.  That's ridiculous.  It was a frustration foul at the end of a game where it was the Spurs' game to lose, and lose they did.

Actually, to be honest, I'm glad that Horry did it.  I was getting frustrated just watching the game, I can't imagine how frustrated I'd be if I was actually involved having to put up with that crap.  For a team that loves to complain about being touched, they do an awful lot of their own clutching and grabbing.  Ever wonder why Steve Nash is so great and creating plays?  Probably because after the pass, he does a good job of taking the defender out of the play with his own hip-checks.  Nash gets away with a lot, and I'm happy to see that at least Horry wasn't going to let him get off easily, ESPECIALLY in our house.

No real Spurs fan is going to actually believe that the Spurs are a dirty team, but the seed of doubt has been planted and its frustrating.  Bowen and Horry aren't dirty players and we know that, but with this hyper-active media age that we live in all things small get blown up to exponential proportions.  Take Dirk for example, no one rode Malone, Barkley, Malone, Kareem, and Robinson for their meltdowns as hard as Dirk is being ridden because we have 1,000,000,000 sports sites and blogs that need something to write about.  Take the front page of the San Antonio's own paper the headline reads "Classy Status - Some fear the team has traded its halos for horns" What the hell is that!?  One stupid not that hard foul and our paper is questioning the team - its ridiculous but thats exactly what I'm afraid of.  Another *ring -  I won't ever believe any of our rings have an * and neither should any other black and silver bleeding individual but its frustrating and honestly a bit hurtful to have your own media and some of your own friends turn on your team all because of the perception of the team around the country - which the media creates (and thats a whole different philosophical discussion).  Truth is that Horry committed a flagrant foul that 10 years ago wouldn't have been a big deal but because the league is under such a microscope it is now, and 10 years Bowen would never have ever been considered dirty but just strictly a great defender who uses wise antics to throw his opponents off, to me Bell is much dirtier than Bowen (I can't stand Bell and I think he should of gotten suspended for charging Horry and making things worse, Horry was just trying to walk off).    The real Spurs fans just need to tough this out remember who are team really is and know that if they are the great guys we believe them to be it will shine through in the end.  We all know the character of this team and i am certain it will show through.  

On one hand the Spurs will never be popular.  To call them dirty is a joke but it seems to go witht the fact that we win by doing things other teams don't do, which I thought was execute and play defense, but now cheating has been added to the laundry list.

I'm torn.  Part of me agrees with Gros Membres.  We finally have notoriety so we should suck it up and roll with it and quit trying to win a popularity contest we were destined to lose.  The only reason I somewhat agree with Stampler's crazy idea is that realistically it might help us win the game.  Personally, I think we're going to lay the mother of all goose eggs.  The crowd will be crazy and the refs will be instructed to give Phoenix a "fair shake".  To bench Tim would be so oddball, so ridiculous, I could actually get into it.  Maybe if General McDermott was still the owner this might happen, but I don't think Catman Holt is goofy enough or grandfatherly enough to do something like this.

Interesting idea Stampler.

There is no way Spurs win this game without Timmy. Everybody knows it, so stop pretending it could happen.

While I laud the idea (being a Suns fan), don't do it.  Really, why should the Spurs Team and the Spurs Fans suffer for Horry's play and Stern's idiocy?  Although as a Suns fan I'd love to see it, when I try to be reasonable, it doesn't make sense.

As you can see from the discussion below, this rests squarely on the shoulders of the NBA -- not Horry or the Spurs.

I listened to Stu on two local Phoenix stations this morning.  He said that the rule is a "bright-line" rule and is one of "strict liability," meaning that if you leave the bench during an altercation, you're suspended.

Well, okay, but let's look at "altercation" and "immediate vicinity" again.  When he was asked for a definition of each term, he gave HIS definition.  Therefore, by giving HIS definition, players and coaches are left to use their ESP as to what he means by these words.  In order to create a "bright-line" or "strict liability" rule, these terms should be clearly defined.

In his defense, he gave a pretty good definition (IMO) of "altercation."  Notwithstanding my grievance regarding the inherent vagueness and subjective nature of the use of HIS, unwritten definitions, the defintion did make sense.  See, Stu, you can exercise judgment!

I can't remember the specifics of that definition right now, but it sure made a lot of sense.  Per this definition, the Duncan-on-the-court incident in the second period would not warrant discipline.

However, let's get picky on defintions, Stu, if it's such an easy rule to read.  When asked what "immediate vicinity" meant, he said, "Well, 20 to 25 feet is not the 'immediate vicinity.'"  He then went on to say that one foot away from the bench would be the "immediate vicinity."  This means that "immediate vicinity" is somewhere between 1 and 25 feet from your seat on the bench.  That is anything but a clear rule.  

From here on out, an essential part of every team's staff needs to be a Stu Jackson mind-reader so they know how far off the bench the players can be.

Why does anyone give a fuck what the rest of the world thinks? Those who hate the Spurs will always find some reason to call our victories "tainted." Fuck 'em. Horry's foul, stupid as it was, was one born of frustration. Happens all the time. But his foul was no more flagrant or dangerous than the one Barbosa laid on Tony late in the game (and which the commentators, by the way, called a "good, hard foul"). And if you look at the replay it is clear Nash way over-reacted. If he would have gotten right up and headed to the free-throw line, all this would have been avoided, except for Horry being evicted from the game. But that's what the Suns do, even a straight-up and admirable guy like Nash. It reminds me of the Manu knee to Amare's nuts. Amare got right up and bitched to the referees. Then, a few seconds later, he grabbed his crotch and fell on the floor. Please, any guy who's ever been kicked in the nuts knows the reaction is immediate. All you can do is double over in pain. Amare over-sold it and so did Nash. So the Suns and a handful of folks out in TV land think we're "dirty" and undeserving. All together now: Fuck 'em, one and all. (PS: can we all make a pact to NEVER watch "House of Payne"? Thank you.)

...the ego maniac dictator David Stern on Dan Patrick. He's so inconsistant it's really pathetic. First he says there's nothing open to interpretation. Then when Patrick trys to explain that Amare and Diaw did not run onto the court as Stern suggested but along the sidelines, and that they weren't intending violence, Stern then gave his "interpretation."

Another reason why Duncan shouldn't play is maybe Stoudemire will finally shut the hell up!  I can't stand that guy - I feel for Nash but Stoudemire showed have been suspended after his game 2 comments for "failure to not be a douche bag"

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2007/news/story?id=2872357

just in case some of ya'll haven't read it.

What a great idea.

Exactly what a classy, dignified team, with the best interests of the fans, the sport, and the power of sportsmanship would do.

Exactly why there is no chance in hell that this collection of thugs and whiners will do it.

Look out Tim - Pat Burke is coming for you.

I support this idea 100%.

I feel like I must be the biggest blinders-on homer ever because I don't even think Horry should have been suspended - not even for one game, much less two. With 18 seconds left and Gash with the ball, there was only one BB play for Horry to make - he had to foul, and foul as quickly as possible. After someone (Manu?) lunged at Nash and missed, Horry lugged his aging and less-than-optimally-responsive body up court as quickly as possible and tried to go for the charge - a great play if he would have been successful because Spurs would have gotten the ball back. He didn't make it in time but still needed to derail Nash, so - having his arms down in classic fig-leaf pre-take-a-charge pose - he lifted his arm into an arm-bar and canted his hip into him. This is a play Timmie (and countless other NBA players) do routinely in setting screens to slow players down. Was it a foul? Of course! Flagrant? I guess so, but we see many like it every game that aren't called flagrant, mostly because there isn't typically such a spectacular result - mostly from physics and the rest from Sir Lawrence Olivi-nash.

And the rest is ridiculous history. Bell charges Horry who is walking away and Horry puts up another arm-bar to keep the lunging pit bull away from him - there's something wrong with that?

I'm pretty sure all the Spurs feel exactly the same way - this is a bunch of silly, made-up b.s. and that's why they're not commenting much. Not much to say - when the world goes crazy what can you do? We have some experience with this hate-the-Spurs phenomenon - just because Ray Allen calls Bowen dirty, it suddenly becomes obvious to everyone that he's dirty.

I hear that Rome was strongly in the Spurs camp on this one, discussing the fact that the Suns are apparently widely known in the NBA world as the biggest whiners in the league, and also that the Spurs could never be considered dirty. At least there's one voice of reason.

One final comment - I sure hope Bruce keeps doing what he's doing, because he's been phenomenal throughout the playoffs, reversing my opinion during the regular season that his former shutdown skills may be gone for good. Keep it up Bruce!

^^^^ Yeah, but if we did sit Timmy, it probably would throw the whole "ZOMG SPURS R TEH DIRTY!!!111111" media circus for a complete loop. From a "We want to win" perspective, sitting Timmy is bad, bad, nigh-incomprehensibly stupid idea. From a PR perspective, however, it becomes slightly less nigh-incomprehensibly stupid. Maybe, at least. Because I can see the Suns fanbase ripping us apart for that, too, even if our intentions were good.

That's freaking brilliant!!!! I want the Spurs to win the championship as much as anyone else.. but with this one stroke of genius, Spurs can bring all this mess to a close and maybe even bring a little legitamacy to this damn league.

I'd rather have the Spurs go out as the league defying, classy and honorable non-champions.. And who says we can't win 2 out the next 3 games? I'd say we have a very good chance even if Timmy sits for game 5.

The only trouble with all that is that the Spurs cannot win this PR battle.

They already showed their class in the infamous Nash 'bloodbath' by not bitching and whining and complaining about his presence on the court.  What did it get them?

I blame the young, stupid and reckless Amare and his not-so-young, but equally stupid and reckless coach for all this chippiness anyway.  They basically slandered a great team and knew that their media-friendly team would be cast as the poor but valiant 'good-guy' victims.  And, of course, they were right, and the normal playoff physicality has been tremendously enhanced and exaggerated by the media microscope - strong in magnification, absent in any judgment...  Compare this series to the previous one, as Tim did earlier.  Heck, compare it to every series they played two years ago, Denver, Seattle, Detroit.  Heck, compare it to the other series going on.  Is it really, really, all that physical?  And are the Spurs really, really the only ones playing that way?  We could ask Parker and Ginobili, I suppose, but naturally any fouls Barbosa and the punk Bell have dished out were certainly not 'hard' or 'physical' or, God forbid, 'dirty', no matter what they looked like...

Golden State dished out more real dirty play in their series than Bowen has dished out in the last five years...   where's the firestorm?  Heck, Utah was more physical against them than SA has been with PHX.  Again, where's the firestorm?  

The worst thing for me about all this is that I really did like and respect Phoenix prior to this series.  I now hate them completely, and hope that they never win a damn thing, and that Nash (who has been the only guy I have any respect for left) gets old legs fast and leaves them all in salary cap hell trying to recapture the magic without their wizard.  I hope Amare has a Chris Webber-type career, always pining for the gold, never quite getting there.  I now hate their coach, I hate their owner, I don't even really like Kerr anymore.  His spin-doctoring in the guise of 'unbiased announcer/columnist' without once making mention of his Suns connections leaves a little to be desired integrity-wise...   As do the absurd rationalizations and outright deceit the Suns have busily engaged in -  for instance, the whole, "oh, just checking in to the scorer's table..." excuse, the "Oh, Tim Duncan did it too, and what exactly does a word like 'altercation' mean when you're talking about a rule in place and enforced consistently for over a decade.." thing...

I hope we just blow them out in game 5 and then let Amare and Diaw back and blow them out again in game 6.  I hope they don't stay within 20 points, and I hope the whole "basketball is all about dunk-and-let-dunk", Spurs-hating, front-running, "give me stars and dunks, not teams and defense" television audience leaves in the third quarter and never comes back...

If this means the rest of the world hates the Spurs and adds "dirty" to the "boring" tag, who cares?  They've managed to watch the greatest player of his generation and give him but grudging respect while they cream in their jeans about whichever latest one-dimensional freak athlete comes down the pike.  I say let's just keep winning championships, the more the better.  And if the hatred keeps building, and history-illiterate, ignoramuses want to compare this team to the Bad Boys era Pistons, we can rest secure in the knowledge that we saw the Bad Boys; we knew the Bad Boys...   and you - Mr. Spurs Team, are no Bad Boys Pistons!

but hey, I don't want to come off as bitter or anything...

Excellent comments all around.