Why Pop REFUSES to Play Tim and Tiago Together
by Reylan on Jan 21, 2012 3:37 AM CST
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PrintI shouldn't be writing this. I've got so many more important matters to worry about than waste my time blabbing about how irritating it is to read people demand the TITIT (Tim-Tiago Tandem) in the early goings of the heartbreaking loss to the supposed-to-be cellar-dwelling Sacramento Kings... then later on getting so irritated, errrr furious myself about Pop's decision to keep Timmeh on the bench during the crucial minutes of that game.
We Spurnatics may differ in so many ways we want our team handled, but I sure as hell know that we all don't like the feeling of losing, much less to a team we should be beating black and blue. There's an easy way out of this gripe-hole and blame it all on Manu's injury... but that's getting a little bit too redundant of a reason and boring, isn't it? Anyway, I will just try to share my opinion about what Pop is trying to do by not having TITIT, like what most of us want, in any of our games thus far.
Coach Pop only has the luxury of having two legitimate bigmen in Timmeh and Tiago. Blair and Bonner don't really fit the traditional description of a big man. I can only deduce one particular reason why Pop refuses to use the TITIT in the first 3 quarters and early in the 4th quarter, and that is to minimize the BLABOT (Blair-Bonner Tandem). We often complain about the deficiencies of Blair and Bonner, especially on the defensive end. Blair is short and likes to gamble on defense, while Bonner, although a little bit more disciplined on D, is too slow with a one-inch vertical leap. Having both of them together on the floor would be a defensive nightmare for us Spurs fans.
This, I think, among other things, is probably the reason why we don't see Tiago starting alongside Timmeh. Now, we go to the reason why Pop rarely (or has he?) plays Tiago and Timmeh together in the dying minutes of a crucial game... particularly, that one against the Kings that got away. Oh wait! I can't think of any other reason except Pop trying to impress people too much by opting not to use his best defensive weapon (Timmeh) and still win it... I know you'd say that Pop isn't like that... but fact of the matter is that the guy has an ego, too. I just hope he doesn't waste any more W's with that alleged (by me) stupid reason.
By the way, please stop those calls for trades already. I'm quite sure we won't be having any of that this season... and I'm quite brave to say that I somehow agree with that decision by the PATFO to keep this roster intact. I believe this team has what it takes to take it all the way to the top. Blair may be undersized and Bonner may be tad slow, but these guys provide intangibles to a team that needs toughness and quickness (Blair) and outside sniping to spread the floor (Bonner), consequently opening up driving lanes for our guards and wingmen, not to mention declogging the shaded area for Timmeh and/or Tiago to operate a little bit easier.
We ought to take the good with the bad... and I think the good still outweighs the bad. So we're still good, aren't we?
Well, I think I'll stop my rant here. I still have to finish my thesis draft if I want to get my graduate degree in Physics by March this year. Wish me luck and wish our Spurs more luck! c",?
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In the 5 man units featuring both Tim and Tiago, the Spurs are a combined -15. That could also be why. It is a small sample size, but their skills are redundant on offense and when you’ve got them both in you aren’t getting the most out of either of them.
Defensively, it may be a little better, but not enough to offset the lack of offensive production.
Will argue against trading #45 until I am blue in the face and your eyes and ears are bleeding.
Very nice point of view. Thanks for pointing that out… but could it also have something to do with the 3 other players playing alongside Tim and Tiago? Or the sets we’re playing when both of them are on the floor? Tim seems to be having a solid mid-range touch lately. Why not play Tiago deep below, as Tim moves a little bit away from the basket. It sure saves the old guy from the banging inside.
By the way, I’m not really that familiar as to where to get those stats. I hope you can hook me up with a link. Thanks!
It's better to be silent and be thought of as a fool... than open your mouth and remove all doubts.
Here is a link to the Spurs 5 game units that have seen the floor this season. The Duncan/Blair frontcourt partnered with Parker, Leonard, and Jefferson is +22, and has seen the most court time this season. Part of their overall efficiency may come from them being used to playing with each other, but I’d postulate that whatever difference that makes is insignificant considering this unit is also what starts the game and therefore goes against the opposition’s best players (or at least usually their best 5 man combination).
The Parker/Leonard/Jefferson combo paried with Duncan/Splitter is -7. They haven’t got much time together, and that could be a big part of the problem, but I don’t think it would account for the 3 negative possession problem even in such a small sample size. If this lineup wasn’t significantly flawed offensively, I’d expect the difference to be closer to 0 or -2.
Blair is a better passer (barely), post scorer, jump shooter, and offensive rebounder (significant advantage to Blair there) than Splitter. Splitter is a better man defender than Blair, and a slightly better help defender.
I haven’t been able to watch two of the games this week, but so far this season Tiago’s only dominant offensive post performance (that I’ve seen) was against a very, very weak backup big. Against really big guys, Blair is more effective because he can use his lower center of gravity to clear out space. He makes much stronger moves to the basket- Tiago is more likely to get pushed out of good post position on offense.
Will argue against trading #45 until I am blue in the face and your eyes and ears are bleeding.
by SpursfanSteve on Jan 21, 2012 4:31 PM CST up reply actions
Something seems wrong with the stats there. How could Anderson be in 2 of the top 5 units in terms of time played together, and about 5 of the top 20, when he’s been playing so little.
Well, those two units combined played for 36 minutes- at least 20 of those came when he started right after Manu got hurt.
Even with the little time he’s been getting, he’s averaging 14 minutes a game.
Will argue against trading #45 until I am blue in the face and your eyes and ears are bleeding.
by SpursfanSteve on Jan 21, 2012 6:13 PM CST up reply actions
Blair is a better passer (barely), post scorer, jump shooter, and offensive rebounder (significant advantage to Blair there) than Splitter. Splitter is a better man defender than Blair, and a slightly better help defender.
I dont agree. Blair can only get the ball to the other big (usually DUncan) and that`s it. Tiago is an excellent passer, its one of his main assets. He may have some awful turnovers but remember he is still adjusting to the NBA, he is basically a rookie (because last year he barely played, and it was mostly garbage time).
In the post? Well, tonight’s game demonstrated what Tiago can do if they give him the ball more than twice per game. He is not Scola or Al Jefferson, but he has solid fundamentals and an akward but effective post game. Give him time, but I think he already is as good as Blair.
Offensive rebounding? Well yes, Blair is a beast in that regard, but Tiago is at least decent.
Jump shooting? Blair has made what? 2 or 3 jump shots the whole season?
Defensively? Im sorry but Blair is in Bonner level. Tiago so far has demostrated that he is pretty good down there. Again, give him time, some more games. He is improving each game.
"Kevin Garnett once described defending Tim Duncan as "trying to guard a tree"
This is the first time Tiago has done this against real NBA bigs- and of course he did that the day I made my statements. Tonight was Blair’s worst offensive performance of the season by far.
I was impressed with Tiago, but I’d like to see it more than once against solid defenders.
Will argue against trading #45 until I am blue in the face and your eyes and ears are bleeding.
by SpursfanSteve on Jan 22, 2012 2:21 AM CST up reply actions
I’ve seen Tiago going against nba bigs hundreds of times when he played for Brazil. And even in Europe a lot of times he faced bigs who were much much better defenders than the ones he has to face sometimes in the NBA.
For example, guys like Al jefferson, Scola, Mcgee, Kevin Love, Griffin, etc may be excellent at scoring, rebounding or blocking shots, but they are sieves defensively. Tiago has seen better defenders than them. In my opinion the bigger adjustment he has to make is to be careful with the great speed NBA guards have for doubling him and poking the ball when he makes a move to the middle.
"Kevin Garnett once described defending Tim Duncan as "trying to guard a tree"
All spot-on comments, Chilai.
I would like to get a little more inside, myself -- Pau Gasol
by silverandblack_davis on Jan 25, 2012 11:37 PM CST up reply actions
And he OFTEN brings the ball down low.
The 2012 season: the Spurs have a chance, but only if Manu can be Manu in the playoffs. - CapHill
Pounding the Rock
Tiago has been playing like that since the Portland game, after his worst game this season. Something happened, he started playing aggressive and with a lot of confidence, the problems is that he was not getting enough minutes and touches.
"He was just a young skinny guy who looked like a winner. We didn’t know he was going to be as good as he is."
—Popovich on Manu Ginobili
I beg to differ. Their offensive skills are not redundant at all. Right now, Timmy is shooting long 2s at a very high percentage and hardly ever takes it to the rack. Tiago, on the other hand, doesn’t have a jumper, but has shown an improved post up game. They could work together.
by LatinD on Jan 21, 2012 6:50 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Been saying this all along. Duncan would now be the Robinson to Tiago’s Timmy. Like a version 0.3 of the two great Spurs bigs.
I would like to get a little more inside, myself -- Pau Gasol
by silverandblack_davis on Jan 25, 2012 11:38 PM CST up reply actions
Tiago’s Timmy
That’s an interesting phrase which reminds me of Tomey’s Turl, a character featured in “Was” – which is the first story (or chapter, if you consider it a novel as he did) in William Faulkner’s " Go down, Moses."
“Was” has to be (upon the first reading) among the most inscrutable works I was ever assigned in college. The fact that I was actually able to figure out what was going on is what I consider to be one of my greatest personal triumphs of my entire educational career. I haven’t read it since, and doing so now may prove it to be far simpler than I remember it. But at the time it took multiple readings to understand.
The 2012 season: the Spurs have a chance, but only if Manu can be Manu in the playoffs. - CapHill
Pounding the Rock
Except there is no second Tim Duncan.
Cinnamon and sugary as softly spoken lies, you never know just how you look through other peoples' eyes
by SpursfanSteve on Jan 26, 2012 1:04 PM CST up reply actions
Which means that we have to make do with the closest facsimile we have at our disposal.
Tiago’s Timmy
The 2012 season: the Spurs have a chance, but only if Manu can be Manu in the playoffs. - CapHill
Pounding the Rock
I thought it was that Tiago’s sparklyness was too blinding for Timmeh.
~San Antonio Spurs~ ~San Diego State Aztecs~ currently rockin' my world!
Probably messes with his cataracts.
Will argue against trading #45 until I am blue in the face and your eyes and ears are bleeding.
by SpursfanSteve on Jan 21, 2012 4:47 PM CST up reply actions
Regardless of Pop ever playing them together, we need another bigman.
A man gets the eye of a Tiger, but a Tiger gets the eye of a Manu.
I was thinking more in the vein of KMart, but thats a long shot. Maybe we can package Anderson and someone else with some picks for Garnett (yea right)
A man gets the eye of a Tiger, but a Tiger gets the eye of a Manu.
Hes something of an a$$hat, but then again, the Spurs were heavily courting Rasheed Wallace at one point.
A man gets the eye of a Tiger, but a Tiger gets the eye of a Manu.
Wallace is not near the douchebag KG is.
Will argue against trading #45 until I am blue in the face and your eyes and ears are bleeding.
by SpursfanSteve on Jan 22, 2012 9:15 AM CST up reply actions
I bet you would still take KG on the team.
A man gets the eye of a Tiger, but a Tiger gets the eye of a Manu.
Hell no I wouldn’t. He’s the most overrated defender in the NBA. If Rasheed is in shape, I’d rather have him. Of course, that’s completely unrealistic because there’s no way he’s in shape.
Will argue against trading #45 until I am blue in the face and your eyes and ears are bleeding.
by SpursfanSteve on Jan 22, 2012 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed. For all of the talk that you can’t play Tim and Tiago together as it would mean Blair and Bonner together, then throw Thomas in with one of them and see what happens. Seems like it could have been tried to give Tiago the few minutes of rest he needed late in the Houston game. It shouldn’t ever require many minutes from him (until he earns more), but simply a few spot minutes to rest either Tim or Tiago when either Blair or Bonner is on the floor.
How about bringing Duncan off the bench? Tiago could get acclimated to playing against stiffer competition, and Duncan could eat the other teams second string bigs for lunch. Plus, there is will always be a true big on the floor.
A man gets the eye of a Tiger, but a Tiger gets the eye of a Manu.
I think that’s a great idea, but I doubt it would ever happen. If Manu isn’t going to come off the bench any longer, i think that idea is dead, at least with this current core.
Winter is coming
It would make more sense if Manu stayed in the starting lineup with Parker, that way, at least one veteran is coming in off the bench.
Thing is, Duncans been playing with Parker and Manu so long, it might be next to impossible for him to play without either for an extended period of time, unless him and TJ basically ran 4 down the entire time, (which might work for those limutes) Also, if Duncan runs into first stringers, they would already be somewhat winded from starting.
A man gets the eye of a Tiger, but a Tiger gets the eye of a Manu.
I think that the problem isnt who starts and who doesnt. In my opinion, Tiago should play off the bench but a lot more minutes, sharing some of them with Timmeh. He is ready to play 30-35 minutes a night.
Between the 2 frontcourt positions they are 96 minutes available for bigs. In an ideal case scenario, Tim plays 25 (so we dont kill him during the regular season), Tiago 35, Blair 20, Bonner 10 and 6 for Kawhibunga.
"Kevin Garnett once described defending Tim Duncan as "trying to guard a tree"
Pop played them both in the 4th quarter against the NOOCH, and it worked wonders!
Yo, I’m 6-11, but I just want to dribble through my legs and shoot jumpshots like a guard. - Marc Blucas on Tim Duncan
Pop probably read this fanpost. lol
It's better to be silent and be thought of as a fool... than open your mouth and remove all doubts.
Leonard is showing as a rookie, so Pop can’t go as small. Blair is meh (very matchup dependent) and Bonner isn’t quick enough.
Winter is coming
Bonner isn’t quick enough?
Say it isn’t so!
The 2012 season: the Spurs have a chance, but only if Manu can be Manu in the playoffs. - CapHill
Pounding the Rock
Interesting vantage point. That being said, I hope Pop experiments more with TITIT. I’m envisioning a TP-Manu-Green-Timmy-Splitter crunch time lineup.
by The Big Fundamental on Jan 26, 2012 4:57 PM CST via mobile reply actions
That’s probably going to be his go to lineup. The only other lineup I can think of that he might do is replacing Splitter for Leonard if he needs to go smaller.
Winter is coming
I was thinking Green would be in there for crunch time considering he offers a sound offensive game including his passing ability. Big fan of Kawhi 5-0 but if we can get solid defense from Green and have a threat offensively too … I think we can use that.
by The Big Fundamental on Jan 27, 2012 1:27 AM CST via Android app reply actions
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