The Quandary
Sometimes I have to admit that, as an outsider to the sports world, I often view things the same way a parent might as they watch their children and their friends engage in their particular brand of conflict resolution. While tempers flare and emotions rise about which particular video game system or Pokemon might be superior, the parent abstains from stemming the tide of the great debate, deferring to simply massaging the encroaching migraine away from their temples as their eyes try to climb out of their skull. I guess in that regard, it's unfortunate to know that those very same children often grow up to become sportswriters.
During my 27 years, I've been privy to no less than eleven basketball players who, at some point or another, were touted to be "The Next Michael Jordan." It's never been any secret, as the ever-extending reach of the media has been able to advertise each more effectively than the last as such, knowing that simply invoking Jordan's name has always been enough for even the most scant followers of basketball to take notice. He is, after all, perhaps the most supreme athlete ever to play any sport. The NBA, in turn, appreciates this, knowing full well that it's never had a more bankable star than Michael, despite searching for one at every possible opportunity, likely fearing the day in which MJ will legally be able to procure a quarter every time somebody mentions his name. Sometimes, with the case of Kobe Bryant, the league succeeds in some approximation of that word. Other times, in the instances of Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway, it's chosen squires are left open to the always unfortunate question of "What if?". And then there are the cases such as Glen Rice, and Nick Van Exel, where you wonder if the league leapt to anointing them in much the way one might pursue a "rebound fling" with a girl.
And then sometimes you get a guy like Lebron James.
Ever since coming into the NBA in 2003, James has been one of three bearers of that mantle, "The Next Michael Jordan." Astute basketball followers will recall that both Dwyane Wade and Carmelo Anthony (not ironically both endorsers of Jordan Brand) have also been called as much at points in their respective careers. Unlike the other two however, James has seemingly been the best candidate throughout his tenure in the league, and the best since Kobe Bryant to wear that comparison. Recently however, there's been an outpouring of references to the argument, not to whether or not James is indeed the "Next Jordan", but whether or not he is or will be better than Michael.
Being that I'm perfectly content to let others fuel the fires of debate with their presentations of statistics, titles, and championships, I instead choose to look at the subject a different way. Most writers, regardless of their qualifications, chomp the bit in order to be the first to present you with their numerological arguments as to why one is or isn't better than the other, but in doing so, they effectively miss the point. Numbers can be wrong as often as they are right, seemingly always tend to fail at the most crucial moments, most usually in either math exams or sports debates. It is for this reason that I tend not to subscribe to them as chief indicators in most any argument.
In choosing to look at the Michael Jordan/Lebron James argument on my own, I feel that it bears mentioning that I have nothing against Lebron, or Michael Jordan for that matter. I tend to err on the side of the coin that says you'll find something to dislike about anybody if you look hard enough, so I'll simply just excuse myself from table of people who claim to "hate" Lebron, which is apparently a vogue place to be right now. Instead, I'm simply going to make my own observations on the matter, and offer them in hopes that they might provide an air of finality to at least somebody, being that they aren't things which seem to have been taken into consideration.
Having become a hardened cynic at some point during my life, I tend to look upon things I'm told with an almost native air of doubtfulness, if not utter disdain. This goes double for most every information outlet that contains the word "news". In an age where people pride themselves on being hyper-accessible, news outlets have adapted accordingly and become equally as prolific. What this means for us is that we are at no particular shortage when it comes to being fed a pre-packaged, pre-biased opinion, whenever we feel like attempting to educate ourselves on a particular subject. Sports, in this regard, are no different. In fact, I would go as far as saying they might indeed be the forerunner on the matter. This one fact means relatively little until you consider that it pretty much didn't exist when Michael Jordan was playing. Until the (final) tail end of his career, most of the minutes he played were done so as part of an era where sports news and opinion was slightly more difficult to come by. He didn't begin his career, or see its prime, during an era when one could log onto Facebook and "Like" him, nor was he able to "tweet" about what he was doing on days where he didn't have a game. Indeed, the fact that the internet was relatively nonexistent during the majority of Jordan's years is something that has, to my knowledge, never once been considered. This means nothing, of course, until you look at Lebron James and consider that he was an internet sensation before he ever stepped foot into the league, and whose own celebrity has grown under the watchful and ever growing eye of technology. In effect, this means that James is more proliferated than Jordan ever was. He's been the subject of ESPN and the rest of the sports world's networking whim long before he made his "decision",and twice as much afterward, ensuring that his name won't go unmentioned for any unreasonable amount of time. That amount remains inversely proportional to the speed of the technology which all but ascertains when and where his name will be mentioned.
One might read this and wonder exactly what it means for either. James can hardly be blamed for being born into an era where technology had long since blossomed, and Jordan himself is more than capable of employing it now. Still, the fact is that James has gained his fame and/or notoriety largely as a result of this abundance of technology, whereas Jordan grew his own legend in spite of it. To me, the simple fact that Michael Jordan was able to effectively transcend the sport of basketball and become a household name and American icon on par with coke during an era where people actually wrote letters in order to communicate, is astounding. I'm not saying James couldn't have done the same, but simply that Michael did. In all fairness, I don't remember Jordan being without his fair share of detractors, but I also don't recall the mania surrounding him to be less than what it is for Lebron, and without nearly any of the same tools.
Moving to a quick glance at the on-court accomplishments of the two, I feel the need to say that it isn't so much what either has managed to do, so much as it is the era in which those accomplishments took part. Like most things, basketball is one of those things that more established (read: older) fans of the sport will look back on as being different, if not necessarily better. Having grown up in the late 80's and throughout the 90's, I can attest to that notion as well as anyone. Basketball's "golden age", as the period from the 70's to those 90's is often referred to, was an era that presented the flow of the game under auspices that stopped just short of glorifying physical contact outright. The basketball of those recent yesteryears (in regard to the 90's) was a rougher brand of the sport that Michael and Lebron have heretofore been so successful at. The difference however, is that Michael played nearly his entire career in a period where a hard foul was a hard foul in every sense of the word. Lebron has played literally his entire career in an era where those very same hard fouls from the 90's warrant an instantaneous ejection and a hefty fine. As such, those fouls have become increasingly less prevalent in an era that awards players free throws if an opposing player accidentally takes a fatigued breath in their general direction. Considering that Michael managed to accomplish what he did in a period of time where players like Laimbeer, Mahorn, Johnson, Mason, Rodman, and Oakley were allowed to and encouraged to play their particular brand of basketball, is quite simply astonishing. It goes without saying that if Jordan had played his prime in this era, where perimeter defenders are not allowed to defend the perimeter, and where modern day post defenders are essentially castrated versions of their basketball progenitors, his accomplishments (and numbers) would be exponentially above what they were.
While this could very easily be lumped once again into unfairly blaming Lebron for being born when he was, the fact of the matter is that, looking at him, one would hardly think he wouldn't hold his own. The fact that Lebron is essentially a rocket propelled Anthony Mason that can actually shoot, means he probably wouldn't have had too much trouble doing what he does now, back then. Still, if one wanted to make that assumption, they'd have to be fair and assume that since the smaller Jordan thrived and flourished during the lawless 80's and 90's, he'd have a field day if all he had to worry about was Carmelo Anthony waving at him as he scored repeatedly at will. Repeatedly.
Winding to a close, it also escapes me as to why anyone has yet to point out the fact that, collectively, the basketball world has yet to stop calling new players "The Next Jordan." To me, if one constantly mentioning his name is either hopes or expectations that his accomplishments will be matched or surpassed, it's a sign of acknowledgement that those very same accomplishments are the best. Though Lebron's career has yet to pay out in full, the fact that no other "Next Jordan" has even begun to approach the real Jordan's mythology is telling. I'd even go as far to say that, should Lebron win more rings and score more points than Michael, that he wouldn't be remembered as fondly. Among other reasons, it'd be because he simply wasn't remembered as fondly. Like I said, Jordan was able to captivate an entire world of people long before it was simply about typing his name into a search bar. The whole process of his endearment was much more organic, as the hype had a chance to arrive long before most people were able to actually see him. In this day and age, that is a recipe for utter disaster, but the fact that he exceeded his own hype, long after the initial fires of it had been stoked, is something of which you simply cannot be unaware. Perhaps that might have been different had Michael been exposed to the rapid moving, far reaching technology that athletes today use, sometimes to their detriment, but the fact is once again, that he wasn't. Michael's own lore is about as homegrown as something could've been during that period, and that he delivered for so many, regardless of their sports allegiance, is astonishing.
I mean, what I'm trying to say is this:
At the end of the day, it seems to me like there's not much of a comparison to make. I'd rather other people say my name as a synonym for the greatest, than call myself a King...
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I agree. Great stuff, scrappy.
Also, Harold Miner. Hah.
by silverandblack_davis on Jun 6, 2011 6:58 PM CDT reply actions
I’d rather other people say my name as a synonym for the greatest, than call myself a King.
Indeed.
Unbelievable Time distortion space is the place Mean Gene Okerlund go down that lonesome highway but don't be hypnotized no- reincarnation doesn't have to be you can concentrate and you can-mental telepathy YEAH! But the beat goes on.
nice post.
Never hear anyone writing or reporting about the next Tim Duncan. Just doubt there will ever be one and just glad he’s on our Spurs.
btw Pikachu’s the best pokemon
meh…charizard is the best.
"Kevin Garnett once described defending Tim Duncan as "trying to guard a tree"
But Charmander is so so cute!!
They say every time Pop smiles, an angel is told to stop being so fu--ing lazy and play some defense. -Hipuks 2/3/11
Hah. I agree. Wow, I just remembered a scene where Squirtle was chasing Charmander for fun.
(",)
by day_late_friend on Jun 8, 2011 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions
We once named a Jesuit official in our school “Blastoise” because of his huge belly.
by silverandblack_davis on Jun 9, 2011 2:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Jordan became such a legend because there wasn’t as much media scrutiny and technology. If Jordan came up now when you get scrutinized for any and everything he would be looked at as the biggest scumbag on earth. He had the perfect storm working for him to make himself a huge icon.
First and foremost Jordan came in right around the time you had the two biggest dynasties going at it in L.A. and Boston. Both teams were still power houses and pretty much back then those 2 teams were the most loved or hated teams in the league. Philly, Detroit and Chicago helped break up the strangle hold those two teams had on winning during that time period. All the people that got tired of hearing about or hated Boston and L.A. got to see somebody else win besides them. People liked Jordan and the Bulls because they helped switch up the landscape of the NBA. They also rooted for him and the Bulls because they seen his team fail to Detroit, Boston and even Cleveland year in and year out. People wanted a change.
2nd The way Jordan played was a sight to behold. It was super athletic like Dominique Wilkins but way more graceful and reminiscent of a Dr. J in his prime. People were drawn to what Jordan could do physically because lets face it when he was playing it wasn’t many who could do what he did. Now days the league is filled with nothing but athletes who can barely play the damn game. Hence rule changes to make scoring more abundant to keep fair weather fans interested.
3rd and no doubt the most important reason people are always compared to Jordan and why he is considered the greatest of all time is the DREAM TEAM. Not all those other teams that was called that but the original and real DREAM TEAM. When that team was assembled and out dominating people the media has started getting more savvy and the exposure all those players on that team but most importantly the about to hit his prime Jordan got was ridiculous. Jordan and the NBA got so much free publicity worldwide for there respective brands that it wasn’t even funny. If you were to do a poll of most of the foreign born players and fans of the NBA right now and ask them how old they were and what they thought of the dream team if they were around almost all of these people would say this is what made them love basketball and the NBA in general.
The Bulls won a boat load of championships and Jordan was the best player on the team and in the league at that time and age when league popularity really started to take off. The media of course knew that the reign of Jordan and his team wouldn’t last for ever and with technology becoming crazy and people being more interested in the game the league and the media had to stay ahead of the power curve and find a suitable replacement for Jordan to keep people interested. The media and the league built a lot of these guys up because they wanted fair-weather fans talking. LeBron and all the others before him and after him will never live up to the hype of Jordan because all the stuff that happened for Jordan can never happen again.
LeBron James shouldn’t be vilified for what the media forced down everybody’s throats. he is just trying to be the best player he can be just like all the rest of those guys. Of course they have players that they looked up to as a child and for them to try to act like they don’t want to be as good as them or better is a lie. Just like all these so called fans saying that they never felt that way is a lie. Everybody has something that they hold near and dear to there heart that they work hard at or for so they can say they are great or at least decent at it. The technology and media now is so advanced that these entertainers can’t even live without being vilified for something and the bigger you are the more the microscope is on you.
One thing i can do...................is FINGER ROLL.
by gunnin' gervin on Jun 6, 2011 7:33 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Any time I can garner a response as in depth as this, I consider it a job well done. Thanks for the input.
"I like to use my pump fake to make them come hard, that's when I use my penetration." -Manu Ginobili
by Justin Biehle on Jun 6, 2011 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions
What amazes me is Jordan won without a dominate big man on his team in an era where there were multiple great big’s(Robinson, Olajuwon, Shaq, Ewing, Barkley)
"Winning isn't everything. The will to win is the only thing."
But it was a team with excellent role players and depth, and that triangle offense was unique. As for the great bigs you list, Shaq was still a baby, Barkley was really a short power forward. During that era, only Olajuwan won a title. I don’t think the bigs of that era, the 1990s, dominated the game in the same way that guys like Russell, Chamberlin, and Abdul-Jabbar did in earlier decades.
All these GIFs are breaking my browser.
Bulls had solid bigs, just not big bigs. Horrace Grant was underrated. Rodman anyone? I mean Bulls got a steal basically by moving Purdue for Rodman. It’s less about who was there and more of how the Bulls were able to limit the other teams, and they did that well. It’s like what the Spurs did when they were tough.
They say every time Pop smiles, an angel is told to stop being so fu--ing lazy and play some defense. -Hipuks 2/3/11
I kinda agree
One thing i can do...................is FINGER ROLL.
by gunnin' gervin on Jun 6, 2011 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Lebron James does not have nearly the basketball IQ of Johnson. Magic made everyone on his team better. James does not have that effect, and really struggles working with others. Magic won five championships. I honestly don’t see any similarities.
All these GIFs are breaking my browser.
His game is more like him. That doesn’t mean he’s got the IQ of him. The championships are a part of his play, but Magic had some talent. Heck, he even had Kareem in some of those years.
In Bron’s defense, he didn’t have the talent that Magic was surrounded by. This Miami team is the closest he’s gotten and this team has many holes. Unfortunately, the east has too many holes to expose it. And Dallas is not a good team to expose it either.
They say every time Pop smiles, an angel is told to stop being so fu--ing lazy and play some defense. -Hipuks 2/3/11
Bravo!!!!
You hit the nail on the head my man. Magic had a boat load of talent and never won a title without Kareem on the team. How many great players played with LeBron in there prime while he was in Cleveland? That is what makes me laugh the most when people bash the guy for leaving the CAV’s. That team had a boat load of roll players and scrubs. The Lakers, Celtics and Bulls had a few hall of famers on there squad. I will say Jordan maybe made Pippen into a Hall of famed but Rodman was already one before he got to the Bulls to help them get there second 3 peat
One thing i can do...................is FINGER ROLL.
by gunnin' gervin on Jun 9, 2011 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions
You didn’t account for possessions per game, Lebron ( or any other of todays elite wing scorers, i.e. Wade, Kobe etc) would have had more possessions to play with and pad their PPG, rebounds assists, etc. if they had played in Jordan’s era.
Hard fouls are surely being eradicated by the League, but in terms of overall defense, there is theory that defenses are overall the best they have ever been, and that the drop in league scoring is not simply due to a drop in talent, shooting ability, etc.
Lebron is a rocket powered Mason who can shoot? Lol, I am sure James is tickled by such a compliment.
There may never be another Jordan, even if a player comes along that is more talented than him.
The impossibly high standard set by 6 titles in 8 years may never be met again, just as Russell’s 10 titles would have been already impossible 17 years ago.
Titles figure too much into the GOAT debate, and the league is too competitive these days for anyone to ever touch Jordan’s title collection. Even Bryant who sits at number 5 will never be considered Jordan’s equal because Shaq was the best player for three of those titles.
A man gets the eye of a Tiger, but a Tiger gets the eye of a Manu.
You didn’t account for possessions per game, Lebron ( or any other of todays elite wing scorers, i.e. Wade, Kobe etc) would have had more possessions to play with and pad their PPG, rebounds assists, etc. if they had played in Jordan’s era.
I thought today’s game was faster and had more possessions? Not looking at the stats though, so just a question.
Also, those 1990s elite squads scored in the 90s. I’m of the opinion that the bruising defense played by those Bulls, Pistons, Knicks and Heat teams are way better than what’s being played today.
by silverandblack_davis on Jun 7, 2011 2:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Its tough, but Im not ready to cede that those teams were better defensively than the Celtics/ Pistons/Spurs of the last decade. They certainly fouled harder, though.
A man gets the eye of a Tiger, but a Tiger gets the eye of a Manu.
San Antonio and Bowen especially would have been a stellar defender if he came out of that era because he could use more tricks. Honestly, the Spurs best defensive teams would be even tougher if they were allowed to have that much more contact. Spurs were limited by the rules much more than if they had the more lax system back then.
They say every time Pop smiles, an angel is told to stop being so fu--ing lazy and play some defense. -Hipuks 2/3/11
Bill Russell had 11 titles. In 13 seasons. The last one, he was also the coach.
All these GIFs are breaking my browser.
So was Red really the coach? ;)
They say every time Pop smiles, an angel is told to stop being so fu--ing lazy and play some defense. -Hipuks 2/3/11
Maybe so. I think by that time Russell and his team didn’t need a whole lot of coaching. They had that winning thing down.
All these GIFs are breaking my browser.
by quincyscott on Jun 9, 2011 10:30 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
In short…
Even if a player better than Jordan comes along, they will never be better than Jordan was.
A man gets the eye of a Tiger, but a Tiger gets the eye of a Manu.
lol
One thing i can do...................is FINGER ROLL.
by gunnin' gervin on Jun 9, 2011 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Lebron<Kobe<Jordan<Bonner
"Fool me once, strike one. But fool me twice ... strike three."
-Michael Scott
lebron < Kobe? Are you insane? This shouldnt be a discussion anymore. Kobe is a and was a better scorer than Lebron. Lebron is better at EVERYTHING else. Have you seen him play defense?
"Kevin Garnett once described defending Tim Duncan as "trying to guard a tree"
Kobe has better heart than Lebron. Find that stat on the back of a card. If you could, then it would also probably tell you that the evolve form of Kobe was Michael Jordan, and that if you held off evolution long enough for Kobe to learn some new skills, he could be just as good in his basic form, and you could just give him a bunch of rare candy and vitamins. And maybe he’d grow his ’fro back
"I like to use my pump fake to make them come hard, that's when I use my penetration." -Manu Ginobili
by Justin Biehle on Jun 10, 2011 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I do recall Kobe “checking out” in some games like that bizarre Game 7 in 2005 (I think) against Phoenix when he inexplicably refused to shoot (we’ll have Smush Parker to blame), and the Finals Game 6 against Boston when he let his team get whupped by 30+ points in a closeout game.
by silverandblack_davis on Jun 10, 2011 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Nice post. I love how you included a picture of Money Mase giving LeBron some action in that post. :))
I wasn’t really basketball literate during the era of Jordan (I was 3 when he won his last ring), so I can’t really speak much about the comparisons between James and Jordan, and it follows that I can’t say which of them was greater. For me, every person is a unique individual. I don’t see why you have to keep looking for the next Jordan. Why not let them be the first Kobes, Lebrons, and Wades (which, in hindsight, they are now, but only after they were evaluated for succeeding Jordan’s throne.) I guess people should really let it go and accept the fact that there won’t be another Jordan in the NBA, just as I doubt there’ll be another Tim Duncan, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Lebron, and so on.
Just my two cents.
bulbasaur
"I like to use my pump fake to make them come hard, that's when I use my penetration." -Manu Ginobili
by Justin Biehle on Jun 7, 2011 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
don’t see why you have to keep looking for the next Jordan. Why not let them be the first Kobes, Lebrons, and Wades … I guess people should really let it go and accept the fact that there won’t be another Jordan in the NBA, just as I doubt there’ll be another Tim Duncan, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Lebron, and so on.
I agree completely. I suppose people just have fun talking about those types of comparisons. Plus talking about the “Next Jordan” is a way for the league to keep casual fans (such as those only interested in a highly succesful, well-marketed superstar like Jordan) interested in the NBA.
The thing is that worldwide, it’s not even close. Just ask any Argentine my age or a bit older – MJ captivated us somehow, in short glimpses of important games. I remember moving a potato antenna around with my dad at the beach trying to see one of those Utah/Chicago finals.
LeBron? No one knows him. No one cares.
And Wade is dominating anyway.
They say every time Pop smiles, an angel is told to stop being so fu--ing lazy and play some defense. -Hipuks 2/3/11
Despite his overall game, James certainly isn’t helping his legacy out with the way he has dissapeared offensively so far in these finals.
A man gets the eye of a Tiger, but a Tiger gets the eye of a Manu.
LeBron? No one knows him. No one cares.
Messi:USA = LeBron:Argentina?
Sorry, that probably stings a bit.
Great read, I couldnt agree with you more. In today’s NBA its nearly impossible to play perimeter defense. Jordan got mauled each time he tried to attack the rim.
Still, I think comparisons between the two are very silly for a couple of reasons:
-First of all, Jordan was a SG, while Lebron plays SF.
-Lebron is a more complete player than Jordan because he can guard more positions, he is a better passer and he has a more versatility on offense. That being said, why bother with versatility when you are dropping 35 a night with astounding percentages and incredible defense?
-James is a much better 3 point shooter. MJ realized 3 pointers are silly when you can get anything you want inside the arc.
"Kevin Garnett once described defending Tim Duncan as "trying to guard a tree"
MJ used his size much better than Lebron. And Kobe saw that and adopted a lot of his inside game off of that.
I’m not sure about versatility being that much better for Lebron. MJ knew how to score and be effective.
I doubt you’d see MJ only dropping 8 in a key Finals game, ever. MJ knew how to get points when his team needed him.
There are only a few players like that. Spurs have been lucky to have two of those guys in Duncan and Manu.
The Lebron/Magic comparisons are a lot more apt in this case. Wade is more of the MJ than Lebron.
They say every time Pop smiles, an angel is told to stop being so fu--ing lazy and play some defense. -Hipuks 2/3/11
that’s my point. Lebron and Jordan are such different players. Comparisons are silly because they dont have nothing in common, except incredible athleticism and being the best player of the league.
"Kevin Garnett once described defending Tim Duncan as "trying to guard a tree"
I was just adding to what you had, not really anything different. Lebron has more of the “Magic” feel to him. That doesn’t mean he is him or is as good as him.
Honestly, when healthy, I think Wade is showing he is the better player. Dirk is right up there, except he loses a few points for the defensive side. And I thought the Wade thing even before this post season. This post season just re-enforces it. This doesn’t mean Lebron is horse poop, but it does mean Wade is a pretty amazing player.
They say every time Pop smiles, an angel is told to stop being so fu--ing lazy and play some defense. -Hipuks 2/3/11
I think Wade is a great player but I feel Bron is better all around than Wade. Wade can put that ball in the hoop better than Bron but that is because he knows his game better than Bron knows his game. LeBron is more content to jack up jumpers but Wade knows his game is more predicated on slashing. So when Wade’s “J” isn’t falling he drives hard. LeBron has the tendency to keep shooting to try and make his self get out of the slump. LeBron is a better rebounder, passer and defensive player. Wade is just more aggressive on offense
One thing i can do...................is FINGER ROLL.
by gunnin' gervin on Jun 9, 2011 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Decision making is part of the game. Clutchness is part of the game and just being able to play. This is why so many guys would choose Manu over other guys. Manu just knows the game and that makes him better than his individual talents.
Wade plays on both sides of the game and if he has the talent around him, can really do well. He has some solid passes last night and made the team move after coming back from his injury that slowed him down.
I don’t think Lebron is bad, but I don’t think he’s best just because he can do a lot. that’s not to say that he can’t do a lot really well, but the leader part is important too.
Timmy is a good example of this. He hasn’t put up the crazy points and rebounds others have done, but he does some things really well that make him better than others.
To me it’s more about what they do on the court and sometimes you don’t see it in the stats as Spurs fans know well about with guys like Duncan, Manu and Bowen.
They say every time Pop smiles, an angel is told to stop being so fu--ing lazy and play some defense. -Hipuks 2/3/11
+1
One thing i can do...................is FINGER ROLL.
by gunnin' gervin on Jun 9, 2011 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I don’t understand why people feel the need to crown an individual player in a team sport. People want to argue about who the greatest tennis player in history was, I’m game. When I hear anyone begin a sentence, “The greatest player in NBA history…,” I pretty much stop listening at that point. I just don’t think it’s a valid discussion. In the brief history of the sport, there has never been a single player who competed without teammates. Right? These guys aren’t golfers. None of them succeed on their own.
If Michael Jordan had spent his whole career playing for crappy coaches on shabby teams, nobody would talk of him as the Greatest of All Time. And he could very easily have spent his career in this fashion. He was a very talented and determined guy, and he also had a lot of luck, playing in the right place, at the right time, with the right teammates, guided by the right coaches. Also, he played during the TV era of the sport. Also, the era in which Nike was a huge marketing force. Yes, he was great, but these other many factors help him loom large in our consciousness.
Oscar Robertson. Have any of us seen him play? Did we spend our youths wanting to be like Oscar, buying Oscar hamburgers, wearing Oscar shoes? If Gatorade had been around in the 1960s, would many of us have wanted to Be Like Bill Russell? I’m just saying that TV and corporate influence can skew our perceptions.
I feel much more confident picking favorite players than I do proclaiming Greatest Players. Some of that greatness is always about things outside of the player himself.
All these GIFs are breaking my browser.
Well, the Bulls were crappy at the beginning of MJ’s career. They got better with him and brought in Phil which was an improvement over Collins. There is of course luck involved.
As quiet as Timmy is, people do recognize that he is a great player. He might still go underrated, but he’s usually mentioned.
As far as Oscar goes, it’s more about the time period. Sports back then were still tied in an era where media and technology didn’t allow many to see the guys. In this day and age, I can go back and watch a game I missed a day ago.
Whether MJ had the talent or not, he is great. In the end though those personality traits that make him great (along with the physical talent) are big reasons why he’s an ass and why he’s a hardcore gambler.
Might be the greatest to ever player, but he’s probably closer to the average person when it comes to being a great person. Bill Russell probably would be near the top from the respective athletes for example.
They say every time Pop smiles, an angel is told to stop being so fu--ing lazy and play some defense. -Hipuks 2/3/11
OScar Robertson and Bill Rusell are SERIOUSLY overrated. They were athletic freaks going against 6’6 bigs who couldnt jump, slow guards who could only shoot.
Put someone like say…Dwight Howard in that era and he would average 50 a game. Manu would average a triple double for sure. Lets not even talk about lebron.
On the other hand, Jordan played in a ROUGH era. He played against some of the best defensive teams in history, and those teams exploited the lax rules towards hard fouls.
"Kevin Garnett once described defending Tim Duncan as "trying to guard a tree"
Yeah, but you could also argue, with todays technologies, most guys would do well against them. But if you put the old guys into this era they’d likely have the same/similar advantages.
Howard, back in Bill and Oscar’s era wouldn’t be as athletic for instance due to the lack technology in sports and changes in diets, etc.
They say every time Pop smiles, an angel is told to stop being so fu--ing lazy and play some defense. -Hipuks 2/3/11
It’s very hard to compare eras. American people overall are bigger now than they were in 1960, and that is certainly true of athletes.
But I would be careful about using Dwight Howard and Bill Russell in the same breath. Russell played against another overhyped, underachieving, gigantic man by the name of Wilt Chamberlin, and whooped him repeatedly. And I would definitely put Wilt above Howard at this point.
All these GIFs are breaking my browser.
by quincyscott on Jun 10, 2011 5:21 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I was born after both Russell and Chamberlain retired, and I think a lot of us on this blog also were, but it seems people seem to fall into these camps regarding these two legends:
A) Russell kicked his butt. He won a lot of titles. He is better than Wilt.
B) Chamberlain didn’t win as much, but he dominated games and was the better individual player. Therefore he is better than Russell.
I don’t know which side I stand on, as I can only go off what the media tells me via print, internet, TV, etc. along with stats and rings. Some of these experts will pick Russ, others pick Wilt. The rings love Bill, the stats support Wilt. Again, I am not firmly on either guy’s side. I have no horse in this race. But I think it is hard to say Russell “whooped him repeatedly.” More accurate might be that Russell’s team’s whooped Wilt’s team’s repeatedly. BTW Hubie Brown is on record (for what it’s worth) as saying “Russell never stopped Wilt.”
I’m with you on this. Who knows?
I think it would be great to have this kind of rivalry today, one that goes on for years. Russell and Wilt, Bird and Magic. The contrasting elites, vying for a title every year.
All these GIFs are breaking my browser.
by quincyscott on Jun 14, 2011 2:01 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The funny thing in the Magic vs. Bird rivalry, is Lakers also had Kareem, perhaps the greatest big man to ever play… That’s a nice to have even though both teams were pretty stacked, especially the C’s.
They say every time Pop smiles, an angel is told to stop being so fu--ing lazy and play some defense. -Hipuks 2/3/11
Wilt has similarities to a modern dominant big man in Shaq in that he underachieved a bit. From that perspective, Russell gave you everything he had with what tools he had. I can’t say who is better since I have not seen a lot of game footage of either, but I can say from what I read, that seems to be what I see most of all.
He dominated the numbers, but we can look at the example of Duncan vs. Malone for an example of numbers not always telling the full story.
Just something to add to the fun of this.
They say every time Pop smiles, an angel is told to stop being so fu--ing lazy and play some defense. -Hipuks 2/3/11
Just goes to show how much of a team game basketball is, at the end of the day. I’m pretty sure in the NBA’s history, no superstar was able to stop another superstar in terms of consistently holding one down to very pedestrian numbers. Even Russell, in books about him, admits to not being able to stop Wilt from stuffing the stat sheet.
Bill, though, was the much better team player as he adjusted his game to fit the team. He has mentioned before that he could score more if he wanted to, but had such talented scorers surrounding him in those stacked Boston teams that he just focused on defense, rebounding and igniting the break through outlet passes.
From this recently concluded NBA finals, it’s important to observe stars stepping up or wilting in the crucial moments. I think these situations are what really separates the greatest from the merely great, especially at times when you think that the stats are not giving you the complete picture. Russell played in so many Game Sevens but lost none. Jordan and Duncan have never lost in all of their trips to the Finals, contrast to the great Jerry West who I think made 10 or 11 Finals appearances but only won one.
by silverandblack_davis on Jun 15, 2011 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I don’t understand why people feel the need to crown an individual player in a team sport.
This.
However … I think people love having opinions and debates on “who is the best?” subjects, especially regarding NBA players. You can’t have much of a conversation about “who was the champion in year 19XX?” but you can go on and on back-and-forth trying to make a point about which players are best.
It’s great we all could argue all day about the era’s etc. but what can’t be argued is seeing the big difference between MJ and LBJ or any one else for that matter. When you watch MJ he captivates the imagination, he makes you say wow I didn’t think any one could do that. MJ has that effect on every one that sees him. LBJ is a physical beast. 6’8 260 we haven’t seen a player with his size and skill, but watching him, I think you have to be a basketball purist to appreciate him. It’s like Latin D said; The thing is that worldwide, it’s not even close. Just ask any Argentine my age or a bit older – MJ captivated us somehow, in short glimpses of important games. I remember moving a potato antenna around with my dad at the beach trying to see one of those Utah/Chicago finals.
LeBron? No one knows him. No one cares
Exactly end of discussion.

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