CADTWNHMS #4: Inception Discussion
by J.R. Wilco on Aug 19, 2010 4:31 PM CDT
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PrintIt's been over a month since Inception opened, and if you somehow missed PtR's Movie Post in CADTWNHMS #3, and you're not already aware, I think this movie is simply amazing.
But I didn't want to spoil anyone's enjoyment of it, so I've held off posting anything until now.
This post isn't going to be an in-depth dive into an analysis of the film by me; instead, it's more of a introduction to a full discussion to happen in the comments. So, for those who's seen it, follow me beyond the jump and into the maze.
First, some required reading. I don't agree with everything in the below links, but considering some of these theories really helped me to evaluate the alternatives and get a firm grasp of what it is I think happened throughout the film.
Devin Faraci of CHUD says never wake up. (Comment #525 is a great response to Devin's take.)
Here is an excellent interview with Dileep Rao (the actor who played Yusuf, the Chemist) at NYmag.com.
And for you music/film score fans, a youtube link that may blow your mind when you consider the amount of thought that had to have gone into this film -- at every level.
Now that you're ready, let the show begin.
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I think that Nolan built enough ambiguity into the story that you can make valid, reasoned arguments for either the face-value interpretation or the all-a-dream view. And which you decide to believe in, or which you’re leaning toward at the moment, will inform what you see as you watch; in much the same way that Cobb says that the architect builds the dream and the dreamer populates it from their subconscious.
Christopher Nolan is the Manu Ginobili of Hollywood
So you berate me until I go see the movie and this post is all I get for my trouble? If I had known you weren’t going to analyze the movie to the nth degree, I would have just followed along with the discussion and made crap up. Thanks for taking away all my fun. ;)
So, you FINALLY go to see it and when you finally do comment in the post, it’s not about the film at all?
Thanks for taking away all my fun. =]
Christopher Nolan is the Manu Ginobili of Hollywood
Well, I’m still waiting to hear some your thoughts. :P
However, I just spent the time to read Devin Faraci’s analysis of the movie. Although well-written and well-reasoned, I do disagree with his take. If it’s all “just a dream”, then I think you’ve lost the soul of the movie, because ultimately it’s about Cobb’s journey to forgiveness and true catharsis. I feel that Devin is trying too hard to apply a different veneer to the story, overlooking the simple, yet poignant, emotional depth.
Your turn.
I heart you, Cap. Well said.
"We choose to go to the moon... and do the other things, not only because they are easy, but because they are hard." - JFK
by silverandblack_davis on Aug 19, 2010 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I liked Devin’s take because it was so different from how I viewed the film. He saw so many different things that I didn’t, and so much of what we both saw was from utterly opposing perspectives. So reading his review (if you want to call it that) was quite eye-opening, since it showed me so many things that I would never have come up with on my own, like the parallels between film-making and the team Cobb assembles – which I found brilliant.
That said, I have an entirely different view of what the movie is, the story it’s telling and what Nolan intended. I see no compelling evidence that the entire film is a dream. I see dream-like sequences (like the Mombasa chase scene) but see no reason to believe that Cobb, or someone else, is dreaming at that point. I see phrases repeated (like “Take a leap of faith.” and “an old man, filled with regret”) where doubt is cast upon who actually said it first and who’s the one repeating it, but I don’t see anything I’d call evidence that one is real and the other isn’t. I see a brilliant construct (like when the projections stop what they’re doing to stare at Cobb when he’s distracted by a memory) and realize that it can represent an audience’s willing suspension of disbelief, without being THE ONLY thing it points to.
Christopher Nolan is the Manu Ginobili of Hollywood
The beauty of the film, and the ending, is that it’s open to interpretation. Nolan leaves a trail of evidence both for and against it being a dream… The kids wearing the same clothes at the end, but being played by different actors… the walls “closing in,” or simply getting narrower… the Wedding Ring theory. I could go on and on.
I like the overarching metaphor for filmmaking as an art: Cobb as the director, Eames as the actor, etc. But the film doesn’t have to have subtext without throwing out the emotion of the plot we’re given. I believe that Cobb comes back to his kids—in the real world—because anything else would be cheap, and, like Cap says, “lose the soul” of the film.
In other words, that top’s gonna tumble, and cutting to black the instant before it does is just Nolan performing an Inception on US. After all, it has to seem like our idea.
Really? I think it’s obviously not a dream, and the director just gave it that ending as a wink to the audience. If it was all a dream, then the rest of the plot was worthless. You could do the same with every movie.
“You know that movie you just watched? It was all a dream!”
“Really? Well, fuck you too, director.”
I smell death... everywhere.
But the ending is what generates the discussion. If it ended with a dream people would compare it to those sitcom episodes where something extraordinary happens and then it turns out to be a dream and it pisses the audience off. If it was real, then you have a pretty common ending, where everything ends up alright and for it being a pretty complex movie you have a classic Hollywood ending.
Instead, the guy, making a movie that cost a shit ton of money did the thing that Hollywood dislikes above all, ambiguity. The ending IS what makes the movie, what makes people pay attention to every tiny detail and try to unravel what really happened.
I mean, look at what he achieved, in an era where a “movie” like Vampires Suck opened #1 at the box office, he made something that not only was popular, but made everyone think and reflect on what they just saw.
I did a lot of soul searching. I didn't find anything.
You said it. It had wrapped up way too nicely, and Nolan needed to do something different. There’s no real ambiguity, since regardless of those weak walls-were-closing-in-just-like-in-a-dream arguments, you have an entire movie plot / dynamic on one scale, and a single scene on the other. There’s no balance.
Hollywood dislikes ambiguity? Hollywood likes money. People dislike ambiguity.
I smell death... everywhere.
It’s not like they’re quick to respond to audiences. They will run something into the ground until something groundbreaking comes along, then run that into the ground.
I did a lot of soul searching. I didn't find anything.
Well, at least the Internet is way ahead of schedule in running it into the ground.
"We choose to go to the moon... and do the other things, not only because they are easy, but because they are hard." - JFK
by silverandblack_davis on Aug 20, 2010 12:42 AM CDT up reply actions
And it was tottering too right? I thought for sure I saw some tottering before the killscreen.
But more importantly than that was that he left it behind. I think that was the bigger reveal to me: dream or not this is where I’m living.
I think it’s obviously not a dream
LD, I don’t think the question of dream/not dream is as open and shut as you do, and here are some of my reasons for taking that stance.
The movie opens with a dream sequence, that much is clear, but when the first dream sequence ends, and what we take as reality begins, not all of the dreams we’ve seen have ended. The first sequence we see is Cobb on the beach and being taken to Saito, that scene hasn’t been bookended when Cobb’s team awakes on the train.
We’re given additional reason to doubt whether what we’re seeing is real in the first scene Cobb is alone. We haven’t seen him exit the train, but we know he’s no longer on it. Instead he’s in a hotel room and his bags are packed. He spins a top on a table while holding a gun in his hand, placing the side (not the barrel) of it next to his face as he intently watches the top. It’s not until the top wobbles and falls that he finally (reluctantly?) moves the gun away from his head. Although we’re not sure why, we know that he’s doubting something, otherwise, why the suicide play with the top? A coin makes sense (heads=live, tails=die) but what can a top do besides fall?
I’m not expecting you to stay with me while I go through the whole film like this, but this is just the tip of the iceberg as far as the dream theory is concerned, and there’s just too many things that point toward the possibility, to just shake it off as a non-issue.
Christopher Nolan is the Manu Ginobili of Hollywood
Eh. I guess the only way to handle this is make you list everything, and try to refute or relativize each and every one. Sounds like a lot of work, though.
Regarding the original dream sequence (obviously continued after Cox and Saito fall into limbo) and the scene breaks between the train and the hotel, etc. are just that: cinematic temporal breaks.
Dream theory sux. Go team reality!
I smell death... everywhere.
Actually, if you look closely, the kids are wearing different clothes and shoes at the end of the film.
I’m about 89.7% convinced the movie ends in “reality.”
"You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas." -Davy Crockett
"Give me an army of West Point graduates, and I'll win a battle. Give me a handful of Texas Aggies, and I'll win a war." -Gen. George S. Patton
I have a question.
In terms of mindf2k movies, where does this rank? I haven’t watched as many movies compared to most of you to come up with a list, but somehow The Matrix always comes to mind.
"We choose to go to the moon... and do the other things, not only because they are easy, but because they are hard." - JFK
by silverandblack_davis on Aug 19, 2010 8:51 PM CDT reply actions
Amen. Also another Nolan film, AND it has Guy Pearce in it. You should definitely put Memento on your list, davis.
I have a copy of it but haven’t gotten to watching it yet. Will do soon.
"We choose to go to the moon... and do the other things, not only because they are easy, but because they are hard." - JFK
by silverandblack_davis on Aug 20, 2010 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions
The problem with Shutter Island is that I didn’t really connect with Leo’s character. His journey was interesting but there wasn’t any emotions really tied to his journey in contrast with Inception. I don’t want to spoil it for anyone who hasn’t seen it so I’m stopping there.
Agreed. And I fell asleep watching it, so there.
"We choose to go to the moon... and do the other things, not only because they are easy, but because they are hard." - JFK
by silverandblack_davis on Aug 21, 2010 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh God no. It’s starting again… I had a dream last night in fact that there would be a new post today about Inception, and here we go. But was it? Or is it? Or am I now? Or was that even a dream?
"If I was the kind of guy who posted a signature line, this would be it from now on." -SiMA
What if dreams don’t really exist, but they’re just alternate realities we enter through wormholes when we go to sleep.We briefly exist in an alternate universe and our mind then interprets that as a dream. Since there could be an infinite number of universes, any conceivable scenario could happen eventually, thus dreams that break all sorts of laws of physics and logic are possible .
I should really take that idea and write a script. It would be called, " Slamming The Wormhole".
I did a lot of soul searching. I didn't find anything.
by Hipuks on Aug 20, 2010 1:57 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That’s what he said?
"We choose to go to the moon... and do the other things, not only because they are easy, but because they are hard." - JFK
by silverandblack_davis on Aug 20, 2010 7:45 AM CDT up reply actions
HISHE (How It Should Have Ended, if you haven’t heard of them) is a brilliant group who specialize in fix-it-parodies of popular films and TV shows.
And they’ve just posted How Inception Should Have Ended. Enjoy.
I’m trying to rediscover verbosity. - LatinD
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