Defensive Stoppers, a myth?
by Chilai on Jul 23, 2010 8:10 PM CDT
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PrintAfter reading a post from our resident leader (wayne vore, we love you grandpa!) and discussing a lot about what we need to round out our roster, the answer is always the same: "we need to get a defensive stopper!!".
Preach it ATS!
Maybe that should be a post. Who are the league’s perimeter defensive stoppers? Not guys who are athletic and long and COULD be, but guys who are known to bust their ass and work guys over.
How many of those really exist? And how important is to have a "defensive stopper" when he provides almost nothing on offense?
First of all, are they getting real results? A lot of them live on reputation, and they do bust their asses on defense, but they still get torched.
Even Bowen, maybe one of the best one on one defenders of all time, the only thing he could do to Kobe was "wakin up the Kobe chucker, taking out his teammeates out of the game"....that helped a lot, but he couldnt stop him, kobe always scored big against us and even efficiently. He still damaged his team that became dead cold from not shooting the ball for long stretches.
Sometimes there's a big difference between reputation and actual production on the defensive end. Think about Marcus Camby, dude could only block shots and he got a DPOY. And sometimes a couple of good games or series makes us overrate guys.
Then there's the thing about "potential". Im sorry, but I HATE potential. Because 80% of the time that potential never materialize. A lot of guys get overrated on the offensive end just because they are "long, athletic" and have "potential". Think about the draft. The same thing applies on the defensive end. Its nonsense. Some of the best defenders ARE very athletic or long, but a lot of others dont. Bruce and Batter have good size, but you would never would put them on the same sentence with "atlhetic".
So in evaluating "defensive stoppers" around the league we should consider (in no particular order):
1-Does he get actual results? the oposing player shoots worse and gets more turnovers?
2-The offensive player gets "tired" at the end of the game from having to deal with said defender? Does that make a real difference?
3-Can he EFFECTIVELY guard more than one position? or more than one type of player? or is he only suited against certain players or matchups?
4-Is his offense or other contributions passable enough so they dont negate his defense?
5-Does he defend consistenly at a high level? Or he does takes games or possesions off?
6-Does he follow the defensive scheme? Or he forgets about it just to blanket the offensive player?
I want to hear it guys! WHO ARE THE REAL PERIMETER DEFENSIVE STOPPERS IN THE LEAGUE? THE GUYS WHO AFTER ALL MAKE YOU WIN MORE GAMES? WHICH OTHER THINGS WE SHOULD CONSIDER WHEN EVALUATING THEM?
A couple of thoughts about some players:
-Ariza is overrated right now. He was incredible for the lakers, but when he is more involved on the offense he forgets about defense.
-Our George Hill is VERY overrated sometimes. He looks good against oposing point guards and certain Sg's. But sometimes he looks awfully awful. I think its a matter of experience, we will see....
-Right now Battier is the best of the best. Grate 1 on 1. Versatile. Follows the team's scheme perfectly. He also gives good orders and advice to his teammeates. Right now the best.
-Artest is a monster one on one, but can have his lapses on team defense. A huge plus when he keeps his offense controled.
-Raja Bell didnt play any meaningful time last season, but last time I checked he did get results on the defensive end, a real nightmare for SG's around the league.
-Posey is good, but limited against quicker players and getting slower and slower each day.
-Stephen Jackson sometimes is the best defender on the league....but that's not always the case. Consistency is important!! Still very reliable on though games.
-Gerald Wallace has incredible defensive +/-, but I havent seen enough from him....is he that good? Or are his numbers a reflection of Brown's schemes?
-Deng is incredible, but can only guard SF's.
-Kobe is an absolute nightmare on defense....for 5 mins a game (at the end of games).
-Rondo rondo rondo! he gets steals AND he defends. Like him a lot. Best defensive PG by a mile.
-Parker is SO underrated. Just ask guys like Paul or Nash. Still has problems with big point guards.
-Manu is an above average defender all the time. And he raises to the ocassion.Ive seen him have a bit of trouble with bigger players. Not an asset to defend SF's I think.
-Rasual Butler is average. Stop that nonsense about being a defensive Stopper. He is the very definition of an average nba player. Average defense, average, offense, average shooting. Average average...repeat it with me! I still like him as a 10-15 mins SF off the bench.
-James Jones played for the suns. Then he couldnt get minutes on a Miami team that priorized defense around Wade. Need I say more?
-Barnes is not that good defensively. He is just above average. But he gets under people's skin. And he hustles a lot for loose balls and rebounds. He makes you win.
-Richard Jefferson is our "designated stopper". Yeah, that's one of the main reasons we sucked on that end. He is mediocre with the ocasional good showing against certain matchups. And he is so fuckin lost sometimes. Should get better this season though
-Lebron is going to win a DPOY on miami. He is that frickin good. Now that he doesnt need to carry the offense he will excel more than ever.
-Bogans was pretty good most of the time. But his offense negated much of the positive impact he had on D. The games he was hitting his shots he was so frickin awesome for us. But that only happened like 3 times all year.
-Udoka is a lot like Bogans, but a bit better at the defending bigger players.
-Temple is awesome. I sense something about him. Im starting to think that we should sell Hill high now and ride the Parker/Temple combo for years to come. Yes, im that high on him. And yes, George hill is amazing, but not as as a fit for us I think.
-I say "I think" a lot, just so you think that I express my opinions just as that...opinions. You are all wrong, I always say the unversal and irrefutable truth. Kneel before the Chilai
-The last point was a joke.
-and the last one is a joke too...so its a double negation, so yeah...im never wrong.
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Im starting to think that we should sell Hill high now and ride the Parker/Temple combo for years to come.
At the risk of being shouted down, I’ll admit to thinking this way since near the end of last season.
The people of the village fell silent, as the beast opened its mouth. And then the beast spoke, and said "LOL BRO".
sell high sure, but that doesn’t necessarily mean now. We’ve yet to see how high that Hill can go.
_
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
by the little o on Jul 24, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
oh hai
i see what you did there.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 24, 2010 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Even though your BRAZILIAN, you make some sense. In my opinion, there are very few defensive stoppers in the league right now. In CapHill’s world, a defensive stopper can both guard multiple positions and can irritate the best players (because honestly, nobody is going to STOP Kobe, but someone who can make him work for his points is invaluable). So I have the best defenders in this order: Battier, Artest and Sefolosha. After that, it’s a crap shoot and based more on matchups.
Bruce (FSM bless him) was an anomaly. Most NBA players aren’t going to spend that much effort on defense, but Bruce realized that was the only way he would stay in the League. IMHO, more guys need to concentrate on being hated, as opposed to being loved. But I’m a contrary old fart.
by CapHill on Jul 23, 2010 10:29 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Some great points Chilai.
Im starting to think that we should sell Hill high now
Honestly, other than some enthusiastic PtRers and broadcasters I don’t believe anyone thought Hill has incredible trade value, though he would make a nice piece as part of a bigger trade. He is a great fit for the Spurs system, but most teams need a real point guard or a bigger 2/combo. He works well in our system because we have Manu, amongst other reasons.
'What color do you want?" (Tim Duncan)
I dont watch enough basketball to know who these defensive stoppers are. Even if I watched I probably would not be able to identify them. On/Off court defensive rating differentials are the only thing that I believe comes near to helping me decide who is a good defensive player. It is not perfect but it should tell you how effective of a defensive player on his current system (not very useful if you are trying to acquire a defensive stopper) Here are the numbers for the players you mention above (the more negative the better):
Ariza: 0.239
Hill:1.022
Battier: -1.478
Artest: -4.656
Bell: N/A
Posey: 0.31
Jackson: 3.245
Wallace: -0.233
Deng: -2.927
Kobe: -3.563
Rondo: -1.081
Parker: -0.767 (Not bad!)
Manu: 0.832
Butler: -1.764
Jones: 0.761
Barnes: -1.185
Jefferson: -2.471 (wow!)
Lebron: -1.128
Bogans: 1.371
Udoka: -3.703
Temple: -2.439 (limited minutes)
Chilai: -5 (definitely worth kneeling before)
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
by LasEspuelas on Jul 24, 2010 8:21 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Your observations that Ariza and Hill are overrated right now seems to be supported by the number. Your observations on Battier and Artest stand. I think Battier might be a lot more effective if he had 3 seven footers backing him up a la Artest. Posey was probably very good one day but he is declining like you say. Jackson’s rating does not match your observation unless he really takes most plays off.
Im impressed how well your observations match up with the numbers. Butler seems to be very effective in his current system. In terms of our Spurs Jefferson seems to be awesome.
I know many times we saw him out of position but maybe we over blow how often that happens. This might be a factor of who he shares the court with (this are not adjusted for that). Parker is also good and just like RJ is probably a result of the players he spend the more time on the court with. Manu is not very good but he spends a lot of time on the court with Blair and our second team. Its interesting to me that Bogans was detrimental to the team.
Chilai is the leader of course. Nobody can take that away from you.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
I’m interested in knowing where you got this. Mainly because I don’t see Sefolosha.
The people of the village fell silent, as the beast opened its mouth. And then the beast spoke, and said "LOL BRO".
And also, Jefferson doesn’t surprise me. His main weakness was defending the 3-point line, but he stopped being a major liability after the first couple months of last season. If our interior D is better this season, maybe he can afford to play guys closer than he did last year.
The people of the village fell silent, as the beast opened its mouth. And then the beast spoke, and said "LOL BRO".
Yah, if he doesn’t have to sag in, then he could stick to his man. I think if the defense from the other position improves, that should plug in some of the holes.
This is probably one of the main reasons why the Spurs were willing to bring RJ back.
Yeah, I think he and Manu(among others) were sagging off the 3-point line more at the direction of the coaching staff. Which is a theory I can expand on more in another post, but I’ll just throw it out there.
The people of the village fell silent, as the beast opened its mouth. And then the beast spoke, and said "LOL BRO".
I downloaded the data from basketbalvalue.com and made the calculations manually for On/Off court defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions). The reason you dont see Sefolosha is because Chilai did not mention him initially, I just went with his list.
Sefo: 2.808 completely against the common assessment of his defense by mostly everyone.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
One more thing that might suck for Sefo is that he might be the best defender on his team. Lets say that he is always covering the most dynamic scorer of the opposing team, say against LAL Kobe and he shadows him through the game (he goes to the bench when Kobe does) then his number might suck because he might have the most difficult assignment.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
I totally forgot about Sefolosha, but I like him a lot. The numbers dont back him up, but as you say every single second Thabo plays he is covering a super scorer. When the other team doesnt have a big time perimeter scoring threat Sefo doesnt play much, given much of his minutes to Harden.
Anyways, thanks a lot for the data!! Im all about using numbers, but im lazy like that to search them.
You…you complete me :)
"Rock and Roll angels bring that HardRock Hallelujah"
Just a couple of comments on Ariza & Artest. To me Ariza & Artest are two very different defenders. Ariza is a lot quicker with good hands. So he can even stay with and slow down smaller point guards, wing players, etc. LeBron & Paul Pierce just over-power him though.
There is no way Artest can stay with the quick players but when Pierce tried to back him down in the finals Artest was a brick wall. He physically punishes the guys he’s guarding with his size and strength, etc. He’s also got super strong hands and can snatch the ball out of most guys’ hands. So to me Ariza & Artest are two very different types of defenders. Maybe guys like Battier, Bowen, etc. can successfully check a wider variety of opponents.
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
I also think that this numbers are highly dependent on the player’s team and if he is a starter or if he usually matches up against second units. I have the feeling that if I do this for last year of Ariza as a Laker his number would be much better.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
+1
Very well put for a Laker fan
One thing i can do...................is FINGER ROLL.
by gunnin' gervin on Jul 24, 2010 7:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I like Ron A LOT more than Trevor. When he shuts players down… H E S H U T S T H E M D O W N. IM talking about real frustrating defense, the one that makes you miss 5 times in a row and lose the ball like a drunken monkey.
Versatility is important, but sometimes overrated. Think about Shawn Marion. He was supossed to be able to defend “all positions”. Ive seen him guarding Duncan a lot of times. He was being lauded for this, but….he plained sucked defending him. Duncan scored a bazillion points on 100% acuraccy (or something like that) when Marion defended him.
"Rock and Roll angels bring that HardRock Hallelujah"
I wonder where mbah a moute ranks. He’s a you solid defender who seems to be on his way to making a living through his defense.
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
by the little o on Jul 24, 2010 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I was wondering about him as well. He’s been an intriguing player for me as well, but I also haven’t seen enough of him.
"I like the fact that he’s a man." – Hubie Brown on DeJuan Blair
by Manu ex Machina on Jul 24, 2010 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Good numbers, LE. Do you think you can find out where Tony Allen stands? A lot of people were saying that he’s a pretty good defender.
"We choose to go to the moon... and do the other things, not only because they are easy, but because they are hard." - JFK
by silverandblack_davis on Jul 25, 2010 8:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Allen: -0.54
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
by LasEspuelas on Jul 25, 2010 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions
That’s… underwhelming. Thanks, LE.
"We choose to go to the moon... and do the other things, not only because they are easy, but because they are hard." - JFK
by silverandblack_davis on Jul 25, 2010 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
LE,
Out of curiosity, would you happen to know the number for Carmelo Anthony?
Tony apologist since 2010.
I have it at home. I will post it when I get back. For a moment there I forgot this conversation and I thought you were asking his phone number or jersey number. I had to look up to see what prompted such a question.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
LE, could you provide us with Donald Trump’s number?
I have a can’t miss business opportunity for him.
I always knew someday I was going to go viral - Paul "Double Rainbow" Vasquez
I only read this now, LE, but for the record, I think that any stat that indicates that Parker is a better defender Ariza and Hill is suspect at best.
I smell death... everywhere.
It is just one number. It doesnt say anything about the versatility of the defender or how a player will perform in a different team or a playing for a different coach. With Hill I would like to know how he fared in the first half of the season vs. the second half when he was starting against the brutal schedule.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
You know, you might just motivate me to take on a little project. I will (maybe) look into all the lineups involving either TP or Hill. Then Im going to find all pairs in which the only difference is one plays with TP and one playing with Hill. This should give us a better idea on how effective they are playing defense with each of the lineups found.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
Let the peer pressure begin!
Do it, LE. DO IT. C’mon, what are you, chicken? DO IT!
I always knew someday I was going to go viral - Paul "Double Rainbow" Vasquez
Thing is, you have to check who he’s assigned to. Who their opponents are. Hm.
Well, looking forward to it, too.
I smell death... everywhere.
He still damaged his team that became dead cold from not shooting the ball for long stretches.
Sounds like Pop’s strategy with RJ.
That’s a really important characteristic from some players that go underapreciated. Being able to score, even while not shooting the ball for long stretches is very important. That’s what I always liked about Horry. Sometimes he shoot the ball just once in three quarters, then he could become our go to clutch shooter and hit them like nothing. Most NBA players depend on rhythm. Cut their minutes and touches and they cant hit the side of a barn (the Knee-macs and arenas of the world)
"Rock and Roll angels bring that HardRock Hallelujah"
Steve Kerr was also able to hit shots after a long spell without shooting, or even playing for that matter. As most spectacularly demonstrated in Game 6 of the 2003 WCF vs. Dallas.
by doggydogworld on Jul 24, 2010 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions
RJ has the same issue. If he is not the focal point of the offense he cannot get in a rhythm to get his jump shot going.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
Really fantastic post Chilai. About Gerald Henderson, yes he is that good. He has great lateral movement for a guy his size and is strong and mean on defense. I love watching him play.
Spot on about Kobe. He is the best defender in the league when he tries his hardest. However, I don’t think it would be benificial to the Lakers if he did bust his ass every defensive possesion.
I’d be furious if we traded George. He fits in the Spurs system perfectly. He now has a good three point shot and plays awesome on ball defense. And he’s humble and hard working, I just love him.
And RJ gets a lot of shit but he’s certainly an above average defender.
"It's Manuway or the Highway" - tlo
I dont know about Kobe. The lakers have so much firepower, he doesnt need to go all out firing for them to win. In fact, I think the lakers would have had a much easier road to the championship had Kobe defered more to his talented teammeates. Gasol KILLLED it on the playoffs, yet he was shooting 10FGA most of the games, a lot from offensive rebounds or broken plays. Kobe is something special, but he could gather his playing to another level if he shared the ball more and used the extra energy to defend like a madman most of the game. He sometimes does this, and its a joy to watch. He didnt do it on the finals for sure, and that game 7 was horrible for him.
RJ strikes me as an above average defender one on one. But his rotations…..he seemed lost a lot of times. I remember Pop yelling at him many times.
About Gerald Henderson…I didnt mention him, I was talking about Gerald Wallace. I wanted to pay more atention at the bobcats, tried to watch the orlando series but it was so lopsided that I ended watching like 3 or 4 quarters
"Rock and Roll angels bring that HardRock Hallelujah"
Ha. I though Manuwar was confused but Gerald Henderson is an actual player. I had no idea.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
They in fact have a Gerald Henderson. Fun fact, in 1978 a Gerald Henderson was drafted by the spurs with the 20th pick of the 3rd round. Seriously!
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
by LasEspuelas on Jul 24, 2010 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions
How come I don’t see the Red Rocket mentioned anywhere here?
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
Perimeter stoppers only. Bonner is really a Ben Wallace-like altering presence on the paint, but he cant defend perimeter players.
"Rock and Roll angels bring that HardRock Hallelujah"
Are you kidding me How can you not put bonner on there. You can’t see the next MJ but better defensively even though it is right in front of your eyes. We don’t even need 5 guys out there. Bonner’ll cover them all!!! His amazing quickness plus his amazing strength and he is the true one who is Unbridled Rebounding Aggression Personified (sorry, blair ;P). How could you not want this on your team:
.
He just might be the greatest player ever. He is like a tall version of Steve Nash in his passing ability. He can score more than Wilt if he wanted to. And we’ve already talked about his defense. I just don’t understand why you guys want to trade him so much ;)
Honestly I like him this is not sarcastic at all.
Dejuan BLAAAIIIIIIRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
Bruce got up in their grill. Battier does the same thing. As stated above, maybe Pop called them off to sag a little. When RJ gets accused of playing or being dirty, and we know he is not …then we are on the right tract.
A guy I want that may be available via trade: Carlos Delfino.
Yes im biased because im argentinean, but check this out. He had the potential to be a truly unique player. He always had A LOT of skill and an incredible size to boot. But he never had the heart or the passion to impose his will on the games. And he has had trouble with coaches everywhere. He had Manu-like potential, I thought he would be our next big star. Alas, it never came to be. But at this point in his career, he has embraced being a role player. A 3’s and D guy. For backup SF we could do much worse. He is a great passer, so he should fit perfectly.
He shrinks a lot of times, and can be VERY inconsistent offensively. But the D is always there. And he is the kind of guy who can hit 5 threes in a row like nothing.
I want him as a spur. Make it happen. I assure you he is better than James Jones, better than Rasual Butler, maybe even better than Barnes. Now that milwaukee has resigned Salmons, traded for Maggete, signed Dooling, traded for Douglas-Roberts and Michael Redd could be coming back…maybe he is available. He is the prototype of “wing” that can play the 2 or the 3 withouth dropoff, the kind of guy the Spurs always have.
"Rock and Roll angels bring that HardRock Hallelujah"
RJ with a season of the spurs system under his belt, and some brand new cash for years to come in his wallet.
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
by the little o on Jul 25, 2010 2:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Great defender. Every stat site I look at backs it up. I’m amazed that I’ve never bothered to notice this. Now you’ve made me want him as a Spur.
The people of the village fell silent, as the beast opened its mouth. And then the beast spoke, and said "LOL BRO".
I’d be okay with getting him if we somehow are able to transfer one venrticle of Manu’s heart to Delfino. That should be more than enough.
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
by the little o on Jul 25, 2010 2:43 AM CDT up reply actions
I’m surprised you didn’t type this in typical Argentine all caps.
"We choose to go to the moon... and do the other things, not only because they are easy, but because they are hard." - JFK
by silverandblack_davis on Jul 25, 2010 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Here is a sign that this statistic is not perfect… Nowitzki: -3.94
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
I think one key element to a defensive stopper is to have a good shot-blocking front line to defend the paint.
Bowen had Duncan, Robinson, Mohamed, Rasho
Posey in Miami had Shaq and Mourning. In Boston he had KG and Perkings
Prince had the Wallaces
Ariza had GAsol, Bynum and Odom
"He was just a young skinny guy who looked like a winner. We didn’t know he was going to be as good as he is."
—Popovich on Manu Ginobili
I never thought about this. Great pick up.
Battier hasn’t always had Yao, but Yao is nice to have when you can.
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
by the little o on Jul 25, 2010 2:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Did Shaq and Mourning play at the same time in Miami? I seem to remember Shaq and Haslem a lot. And while Haslem plays good D he’s not really a 7’ shot-blocker who strikes fear in the hearts of opposing slashers. No more so than recent “short” Spurs defenders like Thomas or McDyess, at least.
by doggydogworld on Jul 25, 2010 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Yep, they played together. Think the championship year was Mourning’s last year. I never really liked him, but man he was definitely a warrior.
'What color do you want?" (Tim Duncan)
I know they were on the team together, but were they actually on the floor together. The whole theory is you have two shot blockers behind the perimeter defenders, not one shot blocker in the game and the other on the bench.
by doggydogworld on Jul 25, 2010 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions
They didn’t share time on the floor together too often. They made more of a good tandem of having a big guy in the game at all times though.
They did play significant time together on the playoffs. In fact, that was their best lineup, the one that had the best +/-
"Rock and Roll angels bring that HardRock Hallelujah"
Not saying you’re wrong but I definitely don’t remember them sharing much time together. I’m too lazy to look it up.
"It's Manuway or the Highway" - tlo
I don’t remember if they played together or not, but I do remember Mourning clearly outplaying Shaq in those playoffs.
GO SPURS GO!
After the Dallas series, I was convinced that George Hill would be the next Bruce Bowen. After the Phoenix series, and watching Hill repeatedly get burned by Nash on simple cuts to the basket for layups, I revised my opinion of his defense so quickly that I’m still suffering effects from the whip lash. That was the thing about the Phoenix series that boggled my mind the most, I thought Hill would do a lot better with guarding Nash than he did, and it seemed to set the stage for everything else that went wrong because the coaches had to take such extreme measures to compensate, particularly being forced to switch every screen, leaving Duncan trying to guard Nash out on the perimeter. If Hill wants to be an elite defender, he’s gonna have to learn to be a lot tougher about fighting through screens.
I think the scarcity of defensive stoppers in the league now has a lot more to do with the changes in NBA rules to limit perimeter contact than a shortage of defensive talent. It’s hard to shut some down ala Bowen because the refs just call things more tightly on the perimeter these days. I think the only way you can truly play shut down defense is you to have to either be Kobe or LeBron, or some of similar superstar status that you get leeway from the refs to play a little more physically on defense, or you are an Artest or Bowen, one of the old guard defenders who had already established a reputation as tough defenders before the rule changes and you similarly get some breaks on calls from refs, in effect being grandfathered in. One of the reasons I hate watching Lakers games is I can’t stand watching Kobe play defense, because if he got reffed the way everyone else does he would foul out of every game (Kobe of course is way too smart of a basketball player to actually foul out of games on a regular basis, he would obviously adjust the way he plays D, but the point is he knows the refs will let him get away with it and he takes advantage of the opportunity they give him).
GO SPURS GO!
5 IN '10!
One of the reasons I hate watching Lakers games is I can’t stand watching Kobe play defense
Say what you will about the Kobester but he’s not afraid to mix it up on D. I was just rewatching finals game 1, Artest got two fouls in the 1st qtr and they switched Kobe onto Pierce. Pierce took him right down to the block and Kobe was battling him for position and doing pretty good even though Pierce out-weighs him.
Plus when OKC’s Russell Westbrook was blowing by the other Laker guards time after time, Kobe switched over to checking him. While he did not stop him he did slow him up enough for the win.
Say how’s that “team of the decade” thing been going for youse guys? Must be tough to watch the Lakers come out of the West again and again and again.
PS. J. Van Gundy said that the Lakers have the toughest starting combination at the 1, 2 & 3 in Fisher, Kobe & Artest.
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
PS. J. Van Gundy said that the Lakers have the toughest starting combination at the 1, 2 & 3 in Fisher, Kobe & Artest.
Khan and his platoon of point guards will soon beg to differ.
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
by the little o on Jul 25, 2010 2:49 AM CDT up reply actions
So lakers fans have resorted to jeff van gundy compliments?
all time low
Hey, I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of a ruling class. Especially since I rule.
by UkraineIsGame2u on Jul 25, 2010 3:20 AM CDT up reply actions
You should hear what Mark Jackson says.
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
Please don’t make me hear Mark Jackson.
(Apologies to Hischof)
I have flying monkeys at my disposal, and I'm not afraid to use them.
Yeah, that kitten seems a little tense. Probably preferred “Hand down – man down.” ya know.
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
Spurs have been consistent, but they still needed a reload. Perhaps, someone will gift them with a Gasol like trade soon. :)
He does mix it up on D. Which is my problem with watching it, because he gets away with stuff nobody else can. That’s not Kobe’s fault, it’s the refs, he does it because he’d be dumb not to take advantage of the opportunity given to him. LeBron gets the same treatment. But if you want to give a full picture of Kobe’s D, we also have to include the ’08 Finals when he let Pierce torch him in the clinching game.
Team of the decade, I suppose you’re talking about that last decade that ended in ‘09, when the Lakers had a three year stretch where they disappeared and were a complete non-factor from ’05 through ’07. If you want to count 2010, then I suppose we can add an extra year onto the beginning of the decade as well to include the ’99 championship and debate about a mythical 12 year decade. Or we could just recognize that the Lakers got the first shot in on a new decade, one that I’m not even going to try and fight you on, I’m just hoping that my Spurs can maybe eke out on last title for Timmy before the league is taken over by the Heat and Thunder.
GO SPURS GO!
Hey WillyD, I’m really glad to see the last couple of seasons haven’t dampened your spirit. Since a lot of topics were covered, I’ll go with the bullets:
- Never said Kobe or his D were perfect. But at least he’s not afraid to put in the effort.
- I’ll let you decide how you want to count decades. To me 1991-2000, 2001-2010, etc. makes the most sense. But you guys are the ones with all the calendar tricks to try and wedge 1999 into the same decade as 2007, etc.
- “the Lakers had a three year stretch where they disappeared and were a complete non-factor from ’05 through ’07.” Yeah 2005 was brutal. Both Kobe & Lamar were hurt. But dude just so you know the Lakers hold the record for having the second fewest non-playoff seasons with five (OK the San Antonio Spurs only have four). And you know the Lakers actually did make the playoffs in 2006 & 2007, right?
- “I’m just hoping that my Spurs can maybe eke out on last title for Timmy before the league is taken over” Well, they had better get to eking then. The NBA epicenter has already shifted down to Fla.
And like I said I’m just glad you’re enthusiasm hasn’t been diminished. Because nothing screams “Team of the Decade” quite like finishing 7th in the west or being swept by the Suns or bounced out in the 1st round the year before.
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
By definition the word decade needs to be used in combination with the first year of the 10 year period you are referring too. It is completely fair to say: “During the decade that started with the 09 season the Los Angeles Lakers won 10 straight championships”
In popular culture people like to refer to the following decades: the sixties, the seventies, the eighties, etc…
To me you have to include year zero as the first year in the popular culture version of the decade. How can you refer to the 60s without including 1960? So in my opinion in the 00s you should include 2000 but not 2010.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
That’s a good point about the “60’s”, “70’s”, etc. It would be funny to include 1990 as the last year of the 80’s. But like I said I’m fine with however someone wants to define it.
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
I was just going with the traditional 60’s, 70’s thing. Sure, I would love nothing more than to just start with ’99 and end with ’08, which would conveniently give the Spurs more titles than the Lakers, but that seems kind of silly.
Yes, I was aware that the Lakers made the playoffs in ‘06 and ’07. Did you know that the Clippers also made the playoffs in 2006. They actually had a higher seed and advanced to the second round that year, which was something the Lakers failed to do both years, falling in the first round as a 7 seed to the Suns. Come on dude, you’re a Lakers fan, you hardly have to resort to hanging your hat on making the first round of the playoffs in any given year, you’ve got plenty of other material to brag about. The Lakers were also-rans during those years.
And if you’re trying to convince me that ‘09 and ’10 were disappointing, you’re preaching to the choir. Ditto if you’re trying to convince me that the Heat are going to run the league for the next decade.
GO SPURS GO!
Um you were saying that the Lakers “disappeared and were a complete non-factor from ’05 through ’07” so I just mentioned that they did make the playoffs in ’06 & ’07.
To me it is very similar to what the Spurs did for the past two years. (Although the Lakers lost to the Suns in the 7th game in the first round while the Spurs got swept out of the second.)
And then there’s the fact that the Lakers have only missed the playoffs 5 times ever and the Spurs have only missed the playoffs 4 times. Of course the Lakers joined the NBA in the 1940s while the Spurs joined in the 1970’s. So if you only miss the playoffs once in the next 30 years you will be tied with the Lakers. (Or 20 years if you count from when they came to L A.)
Again not a big deal to me but I often hear about the Spurs making the playoffs every year. So that’s why I mentioned it.
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
Of all of the PtR regulars, including those who aren’t Spurs fans, I haven’t flipped on anyone as often as I have on you. It’s really amazing the way you walk the fine line between being a Laker homer nonpareil, and a fully reasonable fan of the NBA. The former has a tendency to occasionally make me want to punch you in the face while the latter makes it seem like there’s no place more natural for you to hang out than PtR.
::sigh::
Guess I’ll just keep telling myself that the only reason you annoy me at times, is because L.A. has had more recent success than the Spurs.
I always knew someday I was going to go viral - Paul "Double Rainbow" Vasquez
+1.
Olf is really a diehard Spurs fan that says obnoxious thing just to keep up appearances. No real Laker’s fan ever makes that much sense (at times) or is even occasionally likable.
Lauri: thank goodness I have you magnificent bastards to waste [the offseason] with.
Tough?
Tough in what way?
One thing i can do...................is FINGER ROLL.
by gunnin' gervin on Jul 27, 2010 1:34 AM CDT up reply actions
I thought Hill would do a lot better with guarding Nash
If it was just Nash it wouldn’t bother me much. Few 2nd year guys can guard him. But George couldn’t guard anyone in that series. Grant Hill and Jason Richardson posted him up and Goran Dragic went all Xbox on him. Goran Dragic!
Maybe George lost his confidence after Nash blew by him a few times? Or maybe his ankle was bothering him? It looked OK against Dallas, but it’s not like an ailing Jason Kidd anchored to the 3 point line was a severe test of George’s defensive abilities.
by doggydogworld on Jul 25, 2010 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Might have been a little of both because Hill was reaching with his hands a lot, which is why he got in foul trouble a lot. However, he’s never been that good on his pick and roll D. That’s his biggest weakness so far.
Although in Georgie’s defense Hill and Richardson are bigger than him and have the length to make him pay. This is part of the reason why I think the Spurs are in love with Temple, since he gives them a longer version of Hill (and Spurs want to get to being a more defensive team with their wings once again). Also why I see Hairston making it instead of Gee if all goes according to plan.
You raise a good point about Hill. In some matchups, he’s stellar, in others, he gets torched. Part of a defensive standout’s skill set is knowing opponents’ tendencies and ‘tells.’ I think it’s a bit much to expect a two-year man to have the knowledge-base of a Bowen or Battier.
by freshtunarightofftheboat on Aug 4, 2010 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I was reading a few articles on Team USA, and it seemed as though there was no mention of how anyone plays defense. Gerald Wallace is discussed as being likely to be cut due to his failure to hit any of his 3 point attempts, with no consideration as to how his defense might come into play in the international competition. I thought it was a good idea when Bruce Bowen got invited to try out for the Olympic team, but it seemed like when it came right down to it offensive production was the prime consideration. Is it likely that anyone would make Team USA solely on their defensive prowess? Based on the sportswriters, defense isn’t even a secondary consideration, what about Coach K?
I’m hoping to see Team USA play against Team Brazil and Tiago Splitter. Team Brazil also includes Alex Garcia and Leandro Barbosa, who both were briefly with the Spurs, along with Nene and Anderson Varejao.
I agree. Brazil’s team is pretty stacked.
I always knew someday I was going to go viral - Paul "Double Rainbow" Vasquez
They are. I’d still like to see them bounced out early though, ’cause I want Splitter back in San Antonio as soon as possible. Sorry, Tiago.
by freshtunarightofftheboat on Aug 4, 2010 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Though I use the term ‘defensive stopper’ as much as anyone, I don’t like it because it implies that the player can totally shut down the opposing team’s top scorer. That rarely, if ever, happens. I think it’d be more accurate to call players like Bowen, Battier, etc. ‘defensive standouts.’
A standout doesn’t need to completely ‘stop’ his man from scoring. If his efforts cause his man to take too many shots/possessions to score, limiting the shots/possessions of the other opposing players, he’s done his job, which is to disrupt the execution of the opposing team’s offensive scheme.
One characteristic shared by all defensive standouts is the desire to guard the opposing teams best scorer. That speaks not only to his athletic versatility, but his mindset. I read somewhere that Battier once asked his coach to play Manu exclusively, which meant that he gave up his starting position and came off the bench when Manu did. Gotta love a player like that.
Personally, I think it’s difficult to measure a player’s individual defensive effectiveness using the aggregated statistics most commonly available. You can do a player X vs. player Y comparison for the same team, but it’s not easy to separate out the effects of who else is on the floor at the same time (for both teams). And when you start comparing players on different teams, I pretty much throw defensive effectiveness stats out the window.
Instead, I’d ask the top scorers in the league. Who makes you work harder to score? Who gets under your skin? Who do you respect? Of all the guys who cover you one-on-one, which one would you like to have on your team so that he’d only get to guard you in practice? Stuff like that. I think a vote by the top 30 ppg players (or the top scorer from each team) would be a more interesting way to select the defensive POY than the current system.
by freshtunarightofftheboat on Aug 4, 2010 3:41 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Excellent post, fresh. Rec’d.
I especially liked the last paragraph. That’s a really good idea. Wish I had a job that required me to chase all those guys down and ask them about that.
I always knew someday I was going to go viral - Paul "Double Rainbow" Vasquez
Agree… that would be a fun job.
by freshtunarightofftheboat on Aug 10, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
oh, and thank you {blushing} :)
by freshtunarightofftheboat on Aug 10, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions
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