We gotta choose one.
by Joseph Parkes on Jul 13, 2010 9:28 PM CDT
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PrintBoth have one year left on their contracts. Both are exciting talents. Both cannot be signed. Time to trade one now, and my vote is Parker.
There has never been a better time to secure some young talent in the position that has been a gaping hole since our main man in the bow tie on ESPN left our team. Teams have cleared cap space in the search for a new King and have come up short. Fans are gutted, GMs are desperate. One team in particular is ripe for the picking. The Knicks are more willing than ever to pick up one more 'Star'.
First of all, I'm all about loyalty. Tony Parker put his head down and stuck to it amid all those Kidd rumors a few years ago. TP has played his heart out for the Spurs every year. He's got three rings, time to move on. His main attribute, speed, is faltering. He plays with blinders on. My shot first, you'll get yours next. I'm done. I want my point guard to be able to shoot the three. I want my point guard to be a pass first guy.
George Hill plays alot like Tony Parker. The only thing Parker has over Hill, is experience. Hill is faster. Hill can shoot the three. Hill can rebound. Hill is a better defender. Hill has alot more years left in him. But most importantly, Hill is a little less selfish. AND he's still learning.
Tony Parker is a good fit for the Knicks. The Knicks are a good fit for Tony Parker. Amare wants him there, and I'd say their new 100 mil signing holds some sway in the decision making process, however disastrous that sounds. There are 4 guys currently on the Knicks squad that if I'm RC, I'm interested in. From highest value to least, Anthony Randolph (PF), Danilo Gallinari(SF), Wilson Chandler(SG/SF) and Toney Douglas(PG). The first two are top tier targets. I'd trade Parker for those two straight up, any day of the year. However, I wouldn't trade Parker for Chandler and Douglas.
I'm sure there will be many people out there who think we should trade Parker for All-Star talent. I'm sorry, but Parker isn't an All-Star talent anymore. Parker might be at best the 7th or 8th best point guard in the league now, but in two years, when Duncan's retiring and Manu's in his last year, Parker won't have the speed to be even close to the top ten.
Randolph is a huge talent. He's been in Don Nelson's dog house for as long as I can remember. In 22 minutes a game this guy manages close to 11.6 pts, 6.5 brds, 1.5 blks AND he shoots 80% from the line. He has a PER rating of 18.7. He's still only 20 years old! We have to sign him this year before he plays one regular season game in D'Antoni's system or else no-one will be able to afford him.
Gallinari is a shooter, a sharp-shooter at that. He's tall, young and will only continue to develop. I think he'll be very hard to pry from the Knicks grasp. This guy shoots almost 40% from the 3, pulls down 5 boards a game and would be oh so valuable to the Spurs on offence and defence. A 6ft10 mobile SF would be valuable on any team, but against the Lakers, it could be the telling difference.
Scratch all of the above! I just saw Raymond Felton on their roster. GODDAMN IT!
Richard Jefferson Sign and Trade? Sniff sniff T.T
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I think youre undervaluing Parker a bit
To say that Hill is faster is a bit of a head scratcher. We need Parker’s scoring now more than ever, he is simply unstoppable and can get to the paint at will, so I dont think thats as replaceable as you might think; we certainly wouldnt have beaten Cleveland w/o him, so Id be a bit more reticent to cast him away.
That being said, Hill is a better defender and still oozes potential, so if you can get someone like Gallinari for Parker, then great, but how likely is that unless Amare is pulling the strings like LeBron/Wade are in Miami.
The argument for trading Tony isnt based upon his skills, which are certainly top 5 for his position, but rather on his recent rate of injury and a hopefully willing trade market.
My only reservation would be that Hill isnt quite the scorer Tony was, and as I mentioned above, we need Tonys scoring….so what percentage of Tonys scoring can Hill replace?
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Hill is a little less selfish
This act is getting old. The idea that Hill is less selfish than Tony, or is more suited to the point guard position than Tony is, runs completely contrary to statistical evidence.
I implore you to check the assist statistics a bit more closely. With particular emphasis on “per 36 minutes”. See how Tony gets nearly double the amount of assists that George does? Then move down to the “playoffs” section and you’ll notice that Manu, Tony, Tim, Richard and even Antonio got more assists than he did in the playoffs. George had 0.7 asssists per game in the playoffs. That’s zero point seven assists per game in the playoffs, from the guy you want to be the primary point guard on this team. The only way he succeeds is if Manu is the one handling the ball and bringing it up every time.
Also, the idea that George is faster than Tony is? Well, ummm… I can’t help you there. There’s a reason Tony can get to the rim with ease while George gets most of his points on jumpers, and it’s not because Hill is faster.
Posts like this are the reason I look forward to watching Tony play with the boulder on his shoulder this upcoming season.
The people of the village fell silent, as the beast opened its mouth. And then the beast spoke, and said "LOL BRO".
by Tim C. on Jul 13, 2010 10:21 PM CDT reply actions 15 recs
rec’d.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 13, 2010 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree 100%
I dont know why everybody hates on Tony, he’s our ONLY point guard. George Hill is an undersized 2-guard. There’s a reason why Manu started when Tony went down, Hill is not very good running the offense, he can’t create.
"He was just a young skinny guy who looked like a winner. We didn’t know he was going to be as good as he is."
—Popovich on Manu Ginobili
Is that in the “wrec’d” since of the word in a pun type of way?
I always knew someday I was going to go viral - Paul "Double Rainbow" Vasquez
Fair point about the assists, but that is not what I meant about being less selfish. I guess it was poor wording. What I intended to imply was that George Hill doesn’t need the ball as much to be effective. We saw how well the Spurs did with Manu running the half court offence and Hill sitting in the corner for the inevitable open three. And my biggest gripe about Parker is that he is completely ineffective if he doesn’t have the ball. Parker is quicker between the bigs in a half-court offence but Hill is quicker on the fast-breaks. Plus his length makes him almost unblockable on those lay-ups.
"Are you gunna bite all day little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"
Hill is in no way, shape, or form, quicker than Parker. Not on the break, not in the half court. Tony was and will probably be lightning quick again this year.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 13, 2010 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Provided he is healthy of course. Although I think he might still play through the pain.
"I've got Tim (Duncan) and you don't. That's the difference." -Gregg Popovich
Since he’s not playing in the summer for international team again, I think its a safe assumption that hes going to at least be healthier, or healthy enough.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 14, 2010 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
As much as I hate to say it, Manu isn’t getting any younger, or any less fragile. And if you trade Tony away, Manu’s the only good ballhandler left on this team. That is a gigantic risk to take for the sake of getting players who likely won’t ever sniff an all-star caliber season.
The people of the village fell silent, as the beast opened its mouth. And then the beast spoke, and said "LOL BRO".
Exactly. We dont need to be relying more on Manu or Tim. We need to be relying more on Tony (who has always delivered), and George and Dejuan.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 13, 2010 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Fair point, so who do you think we could get for Parker, or Hill. I have a secret crush on Randolph and Gallinari, that’s why I want them wearing the silver and black.
"Are you gunna bite all day little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"
by Joseph Parkes on Jul 13, 2010 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Secret?
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Jul 13, 2010 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions
At least one of these teams that “retooled” this summer is going to fall far short of expectations. That’s when we strike. As far as who that team will be, and what players would be involved, it’s way too early to say.
The people of the village fell silent, as the beast opened its mouth. And then the beast spoke, and said "LOL BRO".
That’s when we strike.
The Admiral and General are nicknames already taken but this comment has me dying to call you by a millitary title, Major Tim.
"It's Manuway or the Highway" - tlo
Commander.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 14, 2010 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Ground Control to Major … Tim?
I always knew someday I was going to go viral - Paul "Double Rainbow" Vasquez
by J.R. Wilco on Jul 15, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Gallinari ever learns to play defense (he won’t), he and a first rounder might be worth Tony. might be. maybe.
probably not. I’d still rather have Tony.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 13, 2010 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Gallinari’s defense is underrated.
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
by the little o on Jul 14, 2010 12:52 AM CDT up reply actions
People said that about Nash and Apostrophe when Antoni was coaching the Suns. Nash’s defense improved with a defensive coach (Gentry). Apostrophe’s never changed. I would argue it might have gotten worse. I’d bet money as long as ’Antoni is coach, Gallinari never becomes a better defender.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 14, 2010 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
well, if he’s as bad of a defender as you say, it shouldn’t be too hard for him to improve. Specially since he’s only 21.
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
by the little o on Jul 14, 2010 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Apostrophe was young, and more athletic. His never got better. Yeah, it would be EASY for them to improve their defense, but if it’s never demanded of them, not going to happen. And honestly after you’ve started playing pro ball, at that point you’ve developed a lot of your habits and instincts, ESPECIALLY on that side of the ball.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 14, 2010 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Gallinari has said a bunch of times that he wants to improve his defense. Late last season he asked D’antoni to guard the other team’s best perimeter player. He guarded Manu and got torched a couple of times. When reporters after the game commended him for his development he was still pissed about his defense.
I told him those minutes in crunch time against a team like the Spurs mean a lot for his development. He didn’t want to hear it.
“It means a lot, especially means a lot when Ginobili is kicking my-,” he grumbled.
A couple of games later he asked to guard Carmelo (and was mocked about it) and did Ok. I think he’ll improve because he really wants to. I don’t buy the whole D’antoni doesn’t encourage defense either. That was just Apostrophe’s excuse.
"Deep down we all know that swagger comes hand in hand with insecurity. We strut not to convince competitors of our dominance; we strut to convince ourselves."
Matthew Powell
I think you’re slightly overrating Gallinari, just slightly. There is no way that he is worth Tony Parker and even with Randolph we are uncertain whether he will reach his potential. I just think Tony is way too valuable to give up.
"I've got Tim (Duncan) and you don't. That's the difference." -Gregg Popovich
Steve Nash needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Does that make him selfish?
Also the Spurs half court offense ran well enough with Parker at the helm in 2005 and 2007.
Hill is a nice player who could turn into a great one but right now he is ideally a good combo guard to have coming of the bench.
PS: hey Tim C. is there a way for you guys to know if all these “Trade TP” fanposts are coming from the same guy who is just changing screen names? I ask because swgeek pointed this out to me and there might be something to it
"Deep down we all know that swagger comes hand in hand with insecurity. We strut not to convince competitors of our dominance; we strut to convince ourselves."
Matthew Powell
Yeah, I checked and they aren’t.
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Jul 13, 2010 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh Ok. Thanks Wayne. I guess there are a lot more people who really don’t like Parker than I thought.
"Deep down we all know that swagger comes hand in hand with insecurity. We strut not to convince competitors of our dominance; we strut to convince ourselves."
Matthew Powell
It’s just so hard to believe…
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 13, 2010 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions
why is it hard to believe that are more than a couple of people that are opposed to the ideas of the majority?
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
by the little o on Jul 14, 2010 12:57 AM CDT up reply actions
It’s just so hard to believe…
Despite me being a Tony defender I can easily believe it. Most people, including yours truly, prefer pass first point guards like Nash. Unfortunately those do not grow on trees, so you don’t throw away a great player like TP in hopes of a Steve Nash or Kidd falling in your lap.
'What color do you want?" (Tim Duncan)
Chris Duhon is a pass first point guard. I prefer good point guards, so Tony not being a pass first PG is not a good reason for people to want to trade him. Especially when the Spurs system doesn’t call for a pass first PG.
"Deep down we all know that swagger comes hand in hand with insecurity. We strut not to convince competitors of our dominance; we strut to convince ourselves."
Matthew Powell
Parker was trained to play the way he does. Pop drilled that into him constantly. Until the coaching staff changes the way the offense runs, it’s not going to change as much.
by grego21 on Jul 15, 2010 4:16 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yep. Last year there was a stretch where Tony read too much PtR and tried to be a pass first point guard. It was a disaster as it is difficult to change overnight, but also Pop yelled at him for not being aggressive enough with his own shot.
'What color do you want?" (Tim Duncan)
I can assure you that this is the first time I’ve ever posted on here. Other than the quick comment on the Tiago transaction. I’m not starting or in any part connected to a conspiracy theory. Just a loyal Spurs fan posing an interesting idea is all. Well interesting to me at least.
"Are you gunna bite all day little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"
by Joseph Parkes on Jul 13, 2010 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Why are you so sure that Tony AND George cannot be re-signed? George is nowhere near a max contract guy. And i’m one of his biggest fans. He has maybe 2 more years of development left, and i dont see him becoming an all star point guard in those 2 years.
Do i see him becoming one of the best role players in the league as a combo guard and wing defender in that time? Absolutely.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 13, 2010 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions
I just see him taking off next year if he continues to improve. Why would you play second fiddle to Tony Parker if you could be a starter on another team? Max contract or not.
"Are you gunna bite all day little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"
by Joseph Parkes on Jul 13, 2010 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Because he probably will be starting? Manu will probably be coming off the bench. George never played point until he got to the NBA, its not his natural position, and it probably isnt where he really wants to play. Plus, i think being on the court at the end of games is more important to most of the players on the roster than being on at the beginning. And George has already cracked the end of game rotation.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 13, 2010 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn’t mean to attack you Joseph, but there have been an awful lot of “Trade TP” posts around here lately. And the reasoning behind them has been eerily similar to what you argued. So forgive me if I’m a little quick to judge. I hope my comment hasn’t turn you off PtR. But if you are going to stick around I advise you to check out past Fanposts because this issue has been discussed a lot recently.
"Deep down we all know that swagger comes hand in hand with insecurity. We strut not to convince competitors of our dominance; we strut to convince ourselves."
Matthew Powell
PtR’s getting a ton of traffic these days, and there’s always been a lot of Parker hate among Spurs fans – not really sure what he ever did to justify it, aside from marrying Eva.
The people of the village fell silent, as the beast opened its mouth. And then the beast spoke, and said "LOL BRO".
I ain’t hating.
"Are you gunna bite all day little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"
by Joseph Parkes on Jul 13, 2010 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions
I think marrying Eva only endeared him to us more did it not? Plus the Tiago signing probably has caused quite the stir.
"Are you gunna bite all day little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"
by Joseph Parkes on Jul 13, 2010 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Steve Nash doesn’t need the ball to be effective, he’s one of the best shooters of all time. The Suns need Steve Nash with the ball in his hands for them to be most effective.
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
by the little o on Jul 14, 2010 12:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Steve Nash needs Steve Nash with the ball in his hands to be the most effective. There are a lot of good shooters, but Nash transcends that because of how good he is in other facets of the game.
"Deep down we all know that swagger comes hand in hand with insecurity. We strut not to convince competitors of our dominance; we strut to convince ourselves."
Matthew Powell
Steve Nash needs Steve Nash with the ball in his hands to be the most effective.
I agree with this, I just didn’t agree with what you previously wrote…
Steve Nash needs the ball in his hands to be effective.
He’s not one dimensional on offense, and would be able to play the 2 if he needed to.
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
by the little o on Jul 14, 2010 1:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Steve Nash at the 2 would be pretty pedestrian. Steve Nash at the 1 is sublime. That’s what I meant. Tony at the 2 with an Eric Snow type PG could be good as well (like Iverson). You can’t look at a player in a vacuum. You have to take fit into account.
"Deep down we all know that swagger comes hand in hand with insecurity. We strut not to convince competitors of our dominance; we strut to convince ourselves."
Matthew Powell
same guy who is just changing screen name
This one does not fit the pattern. The ones I was thinking of had similar wording, grammer, sentence structure. This post is actually well written without any major rants, so I have no problem with it other than not agreeing with some points.
'What color do you want?" (Tim Duncan)
“And my biggest gripe about Parker is that he is completely ineffective if he doesn’t have the ball.”
Not true imho. Parker’s been on the receiving end of plenty of assists from Duncan, Manu, and other teammates, especially since he spent that summer working on his mid-range jumper. And he’s made key threes at times as well.
by freshtunarightofftheboat on Jul 15, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
From Hoopdata (percent of shots made that were assisted, selected players):
Nash 11%
Paul 12.4%
Westbrook 20.2%
Evans 21.2%
Parker 28.7%
Some PG with high percentage of assisted scores: Bibby (79%), Kidd (68%), Williams (46%)
Georgie stands at 52.4%
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
Thanks for the stats, kinda makes my point that Parker is effective — in fact, more so than some ‘pure’ PGs like Nash or Paul — without the ball, as his percentage of assisted scores is significantly higher.
George’s percentage looks better still, but you have to consider that part of his role with the Spurs is to be the spot-up shooter (esp. for corner threes) and that he’s not the primary ball-handler for much of the game. It’d be difficult to determine his percentage for the times that he’s on the floor in the PG role.
by freshtunarightofftheboat on Jul 16, 2010 12:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Last year George Hill was Pop’s ‘favorite player’. Still Tony was the starter until he was injured. I think George did a Great job as a fill-in for Tony. Hopefully, soon, George will be able to replace Parker. I think Tony will be gone at the end of this season. And with another year under his belt, I hope the Spurs will slide George into Tony’s place is little disruption to Pop’s scheme. Just my 2 cents…
And if Hill continues to improve, which he hopefully will with enough playing time, are we really going to resign both of them? And for how much? We have Anderson now, who everyone thinks will be extremely effective at SG, when will George Hill get satisfactory playing time?
Parkers injuries have only been escalating in length and frequency. We need to get something in return for at least one of these guards because next year we won’t have that luxury.
"Are you gunna bite all day little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"
Yes, we will. Parker will have an extension by the end of the year for slightly less than what a current max deal is, because a lockout is coming that will be lowering players salaries significantly. So his deal will be for more than what a max deal under the next CBA is, while less than a max under the current CBA. George will get somewhere between 5-10 per, which is about what he’s worth.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 13, 2010 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions
George would not be nearly as good on a bad team where he’s expected to run the offense as he is for us. So, we can probably get some desparate idiot GM to give us too much for him, but there’s no reason we can’t keep both and have a 4-guard rotation of Tony/Manu/George/James.
As for Parker’s injuries, he’s taking the summer off for the first time in ages to get properly healed. BTW, that plays into the “loyalty” bit as well. He wanted to play for France, but the Spurs requested that he rest, so he did.
The people of the village fell silent, as the beast opened its mouth. And then the beast spoke, and said "LOL BRO".
I say that if we find a GM that likes GH as much as JP does… then lets trade GH to them.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
by LasEspuelas on Jul 14, 2010 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t George still on his rookie contract? Doesn’t this mean that the team still has a team option to keep him? Why must they give him a huge deal if they don’t have to? Or am I missing something here?
"I've got Tim (Duncan) and you don't. That's the difference." -Gregg Popovich
Anthony Randolph SUCKS. Let’s just go ahead and end this ridiculousness. Tony to the Knicks for two pieces of chump change isn’t going to happen. At least bring back some talent if you are going to continuously propose a trade.
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Jul 13, 2010 10:58 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Well Wayne? Any Ideas? Thanks for the constructive comments. I don’t see much else out there and maybe I’m panicking about losing one of our great point guards next year for nothing. Maybe I over-rate Hill too much, too soon. But I’m not over-rating Randolph or Gallinari. Gallinari would be extremely effective in our system.
"Are you gunna bite all day little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"
by Joseph Parkes on Jul 13, 2010 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions
He’s a Hedon’t Turkoglu clone!
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 13, 2010 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions
If he’s signing on with another team, I doubt we lose him for nothing. We’ll probably do a sign-and-trade and get back some decent players and/or draft picks. Heck, Dan Gilbert, as mad as he was, agreed to a S&T for LeBron.
Just cause we're crippled, don't mean we gotta take the crumbs.
by silverandblack_davis on Jul 14, 2010 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions
I think you are panicking a bit but it’s expected. No one wants to lose a great player and get nothing in return, just ask Cleveland.(too soon? 0.o)
Anyway, I think the reason Tony is the Target of trade rumors, and the reason he’s underrated, is because he is seen as our third best player. A lot pf people take this to mean that he is expendable. For me, Tony is at least a top five pg in the league when healthy and the fact that he doesn’t complain about Manu and Tim being ahead of him shows his loyalty to this team.
Truth be told, Tony really is our most talented (not best) player now that Manu and Tim are older. No other team in the league would be trying to trade him, unless it was a rebuilding situation, so I see no reason why the best in the business would want to. I’m sure the FO has an extension in the making and if not, I doubt Tony will leave us with nothing.
"I've got Tim (Duncan) and you don't. That's the difference." -Gregg Popovich
I agree, we’re in win-now mode and it’ll be very difficult to trade tony and get equal proven talent that would help us win now us much as Tony can. I would trade Parker for Tony Douglas, Gallinari, and Anthony Randolph if we were rebuilding though, but I want to win this year, and Tony helps us with that more than those guys.
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
by the little o on Jul 14, 2010 1:33 AM CDT up reply actions
I do not know why some people want to trade our all-star point guard for role players. How does Randolph make us better against lakers? and is Gallinary that much better than pre-injury Bonner? My impression was that Randolph was never able to handle Odom, so he cannot provide us with advantage with lakers. Parker is the only CLEAR advantage we have against lakers, and if we trade him, that means that we are giving up championship.
Please remember that we are playing for the championship THIS year. Forget about post-Duncan era for now, and how we will get young. Minnesota and Nets are young. There is no championship for us after 2-3 years, we should win it now.
Ah yes, another “Trade Tony” post. I was beginning to miss those.
I never take the high road, but I tell other people to, that way there is more room for me on the low road.
I blame RJ. If he hadn’t had opted out, we could all be having “trade RJ” arguments while we held hands and sung kum-bai-ja.
by Neuwaldegg on Jul 14, 2010 7:01 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
i have a beeter idea… we trade parker for 2 2nd round picks in 2012 and 2013 and a hot dog, that way we can have some munchies and we get some young guys for our post duncan years!!
ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE
That is a bit much. Given all his well-documented faults and character issues I cannot see anyone giving us more than one 2nd round pick.
'What color do you want?" (Tim Duncan)
But i wanted the hot dog :( i was hungry… could we at least get a bag of dorritos or something too?
ROBBLE ROBBLE ROBBLE
by Tuhamburglar on Jul 14, 2010 1:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Nice post. I don’t think we should trade Tony but you offer some fair points. I especially agree that Tony plays with blinders on but he’s still the best PG at getting to the rim and scoring when healthy in my opinion and that is huge for us since outside of Manu and Tony our perimiter guys are straight-line drivers.
If we trade Tony we should only do it if we get a great return, not a bunch of potential.
"It's Manuway or the Highway" - tlo
I can’t decide whether having a player nicknamed The Rooster on the Spurs is cool or not.
Just cause we're crippled, don't mean we gotta take the crumbs.
by silverandblack_davis on Jul 14, 2010 12:58 AM CDT reply actions
I don’t think SB Nation can handle that nickname.
Just cause we're crippled, don't mean we gotta take the crumbs.
by silverandblack_davis on Jul 14, 2010 2:01 AM CDT up reply actions
TWSS
Giggity.
I never take the high road, but I tell other people to, that way there is more room for me on the low road.
Nice post JP. Yes, yet another trade Tony post, but this one is not dripping with hate and vitriol with angry all caps words mixed in. Discussion is good.
George Hill plays a lot like Tony Parker.
I disagree with this one. Hill plays like, well, George Hill. He has picked up some moves from Tony, but does not do those anywhere near as well as Tony and probably never will. Those are Tony’s strengths.
Hill is faster.
Yes, Hill is faster than Timmy Duncan.
Tony Parker is a good fit for the Knicks
Yep, and if the Knicks had something we really really wanted, we could use their desperation to our advantage. However, barring something great, we also need Tony, unless we are getting Chris Paul (or Steve Nash).
Hill is a little less selfish
Meaning Hill gives the ball to Manu and gets out of the way. He does not pass more. However, if Manu is not on the floor, we need someone who can control the ball and dribble around without fear. Hill is not that player, he is one of my favs, but is not a point guard in my book. Temple may end up being that type of player if we are lucky.
My shot first, you’ll get yours next
I don’t think that means he is selfish. Our offense opens up shots for him, if he has a decent shot he should take it. Pop wants him to take it and got mad when Tony was not aggressive last year. That is our offense, like it or not. Pop also wants Hill to be more aggressive and likes that Temple was aggressive.
I want my point guard to be a pass first guy.
And this is the crux of the matter. The main reason there are so many haters. Tony is not a great passer, does not have the court vision of a Steve Nash. However, only a very small handful of point guards have that court vision, and Tony is not below average in that regard, it is just that he is not great. I would rather have a scoring and offense running Tony Parker than a mediocre point guard just because the mediocre guy is pass-first.
BTW, Hill is not a pass first point guard either. He passes the ball early on before the play gets started.
But despite all my disagreements, I do like the post. There are always going to be Trade Tony posts until we get rid of him or he leaves, and it is nicer to have a civil discussion than a shouting match.
'What color do you want?" (Tim Duncan)
by swgeek on Jul 14, 2010 1:19 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed, swgeek. Tony is not a pass first PG, but his style of play is perfect for our system. The two are intertwined, feeding off of each other. A more traditional PG would not fit in well and would probably stymie the offense. Why try to force a square peg into a round hole?
As for Hill, he is not a PG – he’s SG in a PG body. However, Temple is a pass-first PG in a SG body, which is why those two could play well together in the future. The Spurs love their interchangeable parts.
Man, this is getting soooooooo old. Why won’t anybody write “trade Timmeh” or “trade Manu” post?
"We lost so many games that we shouldn't have lost," - Ginobili, May 2010
You should get right on that Kondor. I’ll even give you some starting points. Duncan can’t hit ft’s and Manu…..is going bald i guess? Lets trade them both for Darko and a couple of 2034 2nd round picks.
"I've got Tim (Duncan) and you don't. That's the difference." -Gregg Popovich
HA! I would ban that person faster than you can say “trade Tony”.
Timmeh is untouchable. He could be 38 years old with one foot in the HOF, no ACL’s and two horrendously bent pinkie fingers and I still would not trade him for LeBosh Wade.
Trade Manu post??? Blasphemy! Who could do such a thing?
I never take the high road, but I tell other people to, that way there is more room for me on the low road.
That post was before my time on PtR, but I read some of the comments. I like this one by LatinD:
I just don’t share the philosophy of trading players who have done so much for a team. I’ve talked about this before, and I’d feel the same way if people wanted to trade Tony.
Foreshadowing?
'What color do you want?" (Tim Duncan)
It’s not that I want to trade Parker. I just think the upside of doing it now is worth it. I think Hill can replace Parker adequately, he managed it when Parker was out all those games last year. With Anderson coming in, and Gee and Temple looking good, we’d have plenty of depth at the guard position. Remember Timmy is getting old FAST, like he sipped from the wrong cup in Indiana Jones, trading Parker now for Gallinari and Randolph would cement the Spurs future for the next 5 years. Maybe we can get a pick and a trade exception off them too.
Basically my post was meant to imply that I really rate Hill, Gallinari, and Randolph. No matter what, I’ll be watching. There are two things that I will guarantee though. Because Jefferson will be just as bad this year for the spurs as he was last year, you will wish that we had Gallinari to hit all the open threes Jefferson misses. And in D’Antonis system, Anthony Randolph will flourish, and should be on everyones fantasy team.
"Are you gunna bite all day little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"
by Joseph Parkes on Jul 14, 2010 2:40 AM CDT up reply actions
It’s not that I want to trade Parker. I just think the upside of doing it now is worth it.
Most of the league and GM’s have forgotten how good Parker is. If we must trade him, it would be better later on in the season when he’s shredding defenses and back to 2009 form. Then we would be able to get much better talent in return, while also taking advantage of teams that have crashed and are forced to turn their roster around.
You are only young once, but you can be immature for a lifetime
by the little o on Jul 14, 2010 3:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Bullseye, TLO. If you are going to trade Tony, why not do it when his stock is higher. Next season’s healthy and motivated Tony will be better than last season’s injured Tony. Why jump the gun? Last time I looked the trade deadline is a long way off.
yes, we should trade Tony in 2009 when he is an all-star. We should trade Manu in march 2010 when he is playing like the league’s MVP instead of giving him an extension. And we should send Tim for a year to Europe/NBDL in 2007-2008, so that we could go into the lottery and trade Durant. If we do all these things, we are a championship-caliber team again.
"We lost so many games that we shouldn't have lost," - Ginobili, May 2010
Do you have a hot tub time machine you haven’t told us about?
The people of the village fell silent, as the beast opened its mouth. And then the beast spoke, and said "LOL BRO".
Why else do you think I always make such smart comments? Because I can change the past and see the future.
"We lost so many games that we shouldn't have lost," - Ginobili, May 2010
Just to be clear, I don’t want to trade Tony. I still think we could win with our Big Three and I don’t see anyone in a probable trade realistically helping us to that end better than a healthy Tony. I was merely emphasizing that, if there is a Tony trade to be made, now is not the best time to do it. I guess what I’m trying to say is, for those who want to trade Tony, wait and see how Tony does next season before calling for a trade.
trading Parker now for Gallinari and Randolph would cement the Spurs future for the next 5 years.
Maybe you’re right about this, but how about we wait till AFTER Tim retires to cement our future? There is no way a team with Randolph and Gallinari in place of Parker will help Tim win a championship .
"I've got Tim (Duncan) and you don't. That's the difference." -Gregg Popovich
trading Parker now for Gallinari and Randolph would cement the Spurs future for the next 5 years.
Should have been in blockquote
"I've got Tim (Duncan) and you don't. That's the difference." -Gregg Popovich
Cement, as in cement shoes? That’s how I see it.
by doggydogworld on Jul 14, 2010 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Major geek alert. It would actually be concrete shoes. Cement, when mixed with water and aggregate, becomes concrete. However, cement, in and of itself, is only a powder. Sorry, the misuse of cement is one of my pet peeves as a transportation engineer.
Okay, everyone can go back to discussing basketball now.
I always thought cement+water (no aggregate) was still cement. But I think you correct, cement applies to powder only. Thanks for the education.
by doggydogworld on Jul 14, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Even fast-setting concrete nowadays is still concrete. If you mixed just cement and water, then you could still call it cement, but it’s really mortar. However, mortar would not make long-lasting shoes. So, if you don’t want to lose your job as a mob hitman, at least step up to using Quikcrete. Plus, it sets in about 20 minutes, so you don’t waste your whole afternoon waiting to toss someone in the river.
I hate quickcrete. I have to load it into cars at home depot all the time and the damn bags always break, leaving me and my clothes (not to mention my lungs) covered in powder. Why cant you fancy pants smart engineer types design better bags?
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jul 14, 2010 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Cap, please check out the Quotes page which has been updated to reflect your recent awesomeness.
I always knew someday I was going to go viral - Paul "Double Rainbow" Vasquez
You put a smile on my face.
Did you know that the Romans used concrete extensively in their structures and that is why many have survived to present day?
Sure, they could use concrete to build things with, but did they ever figure out that it could be used to make snitches sleep with the fishes?
I always knew someday I was going to go viral - Paul "Double Rainbow" Vasquez
LOL
One thing i can do...................is FINGER ROLL.
by gunnin' gervin on Jul 17, 2010 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Because people like Timmy and Manu. The trade Tony mentality is just the reality of a team that, realistically, isn’t going to win a championship without a major change (or lots of luck). So people grasp for straws and overrate players to justify it.
Most of the reasons for targeting Tony were listed above (playing style, clearly 3rd banana), but there’s also the sense that Tony has a “Hollywood” personality, who overrates his own value, and would ditch the SA ASAP in order to be overpaid in a big market. This isn’t a new perception caused by his upcoming free agency either. Tim and Manu never give this impression. This all started about the time he made that most beautiful man magazine. Whether it’s true or not though, I don’t know. Nonetheless, he has been dedicated while here.
Another reason is that many people built a perception of him as a playoff choke artist early in his career and never got over it. Again, who could ever really perceive such a thing about Tim or Manu? This isn’t really fair, but comes with the territory of being the 3rd Banana on a team with such success.
George Hill plays a lot like Tony Parker.
A few people here already disagreed with that sentence and I want to add another reason why I think this is wrong.
One of the most common and most effective offensive plays for the spurs in the past few years was the Parker – Duncan pick & roll. This play creates scoring opportunities for both Parker and Duncan. The only other guy who can run the pick & roll consistently and effectively is Ginobili. George Hill, with all the improvements he made still can’t do it.
Last year Duncans scoring went down right around the time that Parker got injured. I think part of it was because a big part of his offensive options (pick & roll with Parker) went away.
Parker may not throw a lot of alley oops – behind the back – no look passes but he creates offense for himself AND for his teammates.
The p&r. That’s what George needs to improve on. I was trying to figure out what the next level of his improvement would be and this is perfect for him. Thank yo arnav.
I also agree with your points about why George and Tony are not exactly alike.
"I've got Tim (Duncan) and you don't. That's the difference." -Gregg Popovich
He needs vast improvement on his P&R defense, too. I hope that’s what the staff was working with him on for the last couple of months.
The people of the village fell silent, as the beast opened its mouth. And then the beast spoke, and said "LOL BRO".
I actually remember him running it a little bit in last years summer league. Not so much in the regular season… IDK if the coaches weren’t happy with the way he handled it in the summer league or it just had to do with his roll in the offense.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH!
Sorry, just had to let that out. Joseph, although I disagree with your post, thank you for being civilized and actually wanting to discuss your opinion.
And welcome to PTR!
Just expressing my interest in regards to Randolph and Gallinari is all. Randolph is going to be an awesome player this year, and although he’ll fit in most systems, I don’t think he’d get enough playing time in our rotation to really shine. Gallinari on the other hand would be brutally good for the Spurs. Tall young SF who can shoot the 3 extremely well and rebound the basketball which was the only effective thing RJ did last year. BUT its all for nothing anyways as I mentioned in my post because I didn’t realize the Knicks had sneaked away with Felton.
"Are you gunna bite all day little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"
by Joseph Parkes on Jul 14, 2010 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
I predict that by season’s end Tony F. Parker will sign an extension with the Spurs.
Although he has options in the European Union, Tony may decide that it would be far better to have a guaranteed multi-year deal in place in the NBA, before the owners eventually get their way and shorter contracts with UN-guaranteed years become the norm.
↓↘→ ↓↘→ ↓↘→ + P
What about Richard Jefferson and Tony Parker for the rights to Ricky Rubio and one of Kahn’s many SF’s?
"Are you gunna bite all day little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"
Great idea. Lets give up one good player and one great player in exchange for a player that doesn’t want to be in a small market and an unproven player. Also, no way Kahn does that – it would make the Timberwolves a better team.
'What color do you want?" (Tim Duncan)
Although this trade would seem to go against Kahn’s evil plan to destroy his team, it would give him one more point guard on the actual roster. That alone might justify taking on a lot of unwanted talent.
by doggydogworld on Jul 15, 2010 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Let’s make this real simple, shall we? No Spur has run point as long and effectively as Tony has. Maybe he doesn’t fit the traditionalist definition of a PG, but Pop has molded him through discipline and trust into the perfect point guard for the San Antonio system. We can debate Hill or Temple at the point or discuss meaningless trade scenarios ad nauseum, but at the end of the day, the man I trust to lead SA to the promised land once again wears a number 9 on his jersey.
"You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas." -Davy Crockett
"Give me an army of West Point graduates, and I'll win a battle. Give me a handful of Texas Aggies, and I'll win a war." -Gen. George S. Patton
Hehe, maybe if he comes to SA when we get a football team lol. Romo’s got bball skills, btw! Seen him hoop it up a couple times lol
"You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas." -Davy Crockett
"Give me an army of West Point graduates, and I'll win a battle. Give me a handful of Texas Aggies, and I'll win a war." -Gen. George S. Patton
Please don’t get him started. You think he’s a Parker apologist, wait till you hear him get on his Romo soapbox :P
"You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas." -Davy Crockett
"Give me an army of West Point graduates, and I'll win a battle. Give me a handful of Texas Aggies, and I'll win a war." -Gen. George S. Patton
I am NOT! Tony Romo is only going to go down as one of the greatest statistical QB’s in Dallas Cowboys history! Already has more 300 yard performances than Aikman or Staubach! Already got a playoff win, and if he takes the ‘Boys to the Bowl this year (in Arlington), he’ll go down as one of the all time greats! What’s not to like?
"You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas." -Davy Crockett
"Give me an army of West Point graduates, and I'll win a battle. Give me a handful of Texas Aggies, and I'll win a war." -Gen. George S. Patton
See what I mean? :P Keep the convo focused on the Spurs’ number 9, not the Cowboys’, if you prefer sanity :P
"You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas." -Davy Crockett
"Give me an army of West Point graduates, and I'll win a battle. Give me a handful of Texas Aggies, and I'll win a war." -Gen. George S. Patton
Most of the discussion has centered around attacking the premise that we should keep Hill over Parker (i.e. that Hill is better than Parker).
And though I don’t agree with the idea that ‘we gotta choose one,’ my disagreement is with the choice of trade partner. IF the F.O. felt they HAD to trade either Hill or Parker, it’s a no-brainer. Parker has greater trade value right now. And NY is a logical trade partner; they’re spending like fools and seem to be willing to pick up expensive players.
But Randolph, really? Could a player who started in the NBA playing Nellieball truly be a good fit for the Spurs’ system? Or any of the head cases that Zeke brought in? If it has to be NY, I’d prefer swapping PGs with considerations — Parker for Felton and two unprotected first-round draft picks (to help us restock for the post-Timmy years).
Not that I’m advocating trading Tony. He’s smart and knows the score… it makes sense for him to lock up the best contract possible before the new CBA and possible owners lockout.
by freshtunarightofftheboat on Jul 15, 2010 11:43 AM CDT reply actions
Hill over Parker--Not Yet!
Sorry Joe Parkes, but I have to disagree with most of your assumptions. Hill doesn’t have the ball handling or penetrating skills of Parker. He also is a poor passer off the dribble. He doesn’t have the lateral movement on defense to guard the likes of CP3, Steve Nash and a host of other quick point guards in the league. Hill was falling all over himself and was unable to stick with Nash. Parker did a much more credible job, because he has quicker defensive feet. HIll may get better with more experience, but he certainly isn’t close to Parker at the moment. Hill will have a tough time beating Garrett Temple out for the backup point guard spot and Curtis Jerrells is more of a natural point guard. Hill is a natural at the two guard spot, but the competition he has there is going to be really big. Start with Ginobli, followed by Gee who has been a standout in summer league ball, and then add our top draft pick James Anderson and you may realize that Hill is more likely to be the expendable player. If you pick Parker over Hill you’re going to have a very upset pair of stars in Duncan and Ginobli. Pop mean’t it when he told Parker “you’re not going anywhere.”
a very upset pair of stars in Duncan and Ginobli
Didn’t you hear? Timmy and Manu hate playing with Tony. No chemistry between them, they cannot play with him, and they want him gone.
'What color do you want?" (Tim Duncan)
How about we sign-and-trade RJ for Corey Brewer? After all, a lot of teams seem to be taking advantage of KAAAAAAAHHHHN!!!
Just cause we're crippled, don't mean we gotta take the crumbs.
by silverandblack_davis on Jul 16, 2010 1:34 AM CDT reply actions
I want Rubio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But Jefferson for Brewer would be awesome.
Sorry guys I just like the sexy options, Randolph, Gallinari, Rubio, McGee, Bill Walker. By the way, when I say sexy, I mean young players with MASSIVE upsides.
Tony Parker and Richard Jefferson for Stephen Curry?
"Are you gunna bite all day little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"
How about Tony Parker and Matt Bonner for LeBron James? Miami needs a better point guard and a backup big. Not sure how LeBron would fit chemistry wise though.
'What color do you want?" (Tim Duncan)
Also, would James really fit the Spurs system very well? Pop would probably just make him take his first year to stand to the side and shoot the corner three.
I always knew someday I was going to go viral - Paul "Double Rainbow" Vasquez
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