Missing link
by Manuwar on Jun 7, 2010 6:29 PM CDT
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Two of the Spurs needs (center and small forward) have been discussed and debated ad nauseam. There is, however, another missing piece on the Spurs roster that is a common denominator of all championship teams over the last 15 years (and beyond) that we’ve yet to delve into. Let us discuss.
The player I’m referring to is the team’s resident dirty player. If you’re turned off by the expression dirty feel free to refer to this player as gritty or badass motherfucker if you’d like. Every championship team has at least one of these players. The least likeable the team the more likely the team is to have multiple dirty players.
What am I talking about when I complimentarily refer to a player as dirty? Simply put; when the player is on your team you love him for the exact reasons that opposing fans hate him. Take our beloved Bruce Bowen. Yeah he kicked and kneed and got under people while they were in the air but I never once thought, “Come on Bruce that was cheap…” He made each foul count and made use of all his body parts. To Spurs fans he was a great physical defender and to the rest of the league he was dirty.
The other characteristic that accompanies dirty players is selflessness. A dirty player dives for lose balls, defends, sets screens, gives hard fouls, rebounds, deflects passes and draws charges; all aspects of basketball that do not get public high praise. But above all a dirty player does not mind being the bad guy for the betterment of the team and I can not overstate the importance of this. For one playing against a dirty player is hell. Few can dismiss being knocked on their arse after an attempted drive to the basket. Also the bad guy player takes pressure off the teams star players. He absorbs all the boos and recieves most of the negative attention by press and sometimes referees. The stars can play like stars without worrying about being tough guys.
Last 15 NBA Champions and their dirty player(s):
2009 LA Lakers: Derek Fisher
2008 Boston Celtics: James Posey
2007 San Antonio Spurs: Bruce Bowen, Robert Horry
2006 Miami Heat: James Posey, Alonzo Mourning, Udonis Haslem
2005 San Antonio Spurs: Bruce Bowen, Robert Horry
2004 Detroit Pistons: Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace
2003 San Antonio Spurs: Bruce Bowen
2002 Los Angeles Lakers: Derek Fisher, Rick Fox
2001 Los Angeles Lakers: Horace Grant, Ron Harper, Rick Fox
2000 Los Angeles Lakers: Ron Harper, Rick Fox
1999 San Antonio Spurs: Mario Elie, Jerome Kersey
1998 Chicago Bulls: Denis Rodman, Ron Harper
1997 Chicago Bulls: Denis Rodman, Robert Parish
1996 Chicago Bulls: Denis Rodman
1995 Houston Rockets: Otis Thorpe
You’ll notice that some players where on championship rosters but not consistently the teams dirty player. Robert Horry for instance was on the ’95 Rockets squad but I did not include him as a dirty player for that team. The reason is that it takes years to master a craft. The hustle might be there at age 23 but the know-how and unwavering focus and not give a shit attitude usually comes with experience. Very few players come into the league ready to play dirty; it takes a while.
If we sign Tiago Splitter and draft Stanley Robinson or Paul George (my two draft hopefuls) we’ll still be one badass short of a championship roster. Here are some dirty players or players that could embrace the dirty role that are either free agents or possibly viewed as expendable by their current team.
Raja Bell
Louis Amundson
Matt Barnes
Caron Butler
DeMarre Carroll
Derek Fisher
Marcin Gortat
Chuck Hayes
Udonis Haslem
Serge Ibaka
Dahntay Jones
Zaza Pachulia
Thabo Sefolosha
Depending on who we resign, the way we draft, and of course whether or not we sign Splitter, any one of the players above could be the missing ingredient for championship stew. Feel free to add to the list.
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I tend to think that Posey’s still got it. But it’s been wasted in New Orleans, because CP3 is dirty enough for everyone. ::snicker::
Free Tiago Splitter!
Great post! It was about time for us to realize that we were supersoft this season, and this is one major reason why we didn’t do much in the playoffs. We talked about it in comments, but it’s nice to have a post that clearly states it. I like Matt Barnes, as well as many other players on this list, unfortunately, most of them are probably beyond our reach. But I really hope that FO understands this need. Of course, Manu can be seen as “dirty”, as well as Kobe and Ron Artest for the Lakers. I hoped that Hill could be that guy, he played an expert “dirty” game against Dirk, at least in one game where he got Dirk in foul trouble. But he was a disappointment against the Suns, hopefully he would take some mud baths during his long summer vacations or something like that. Captain Jack is another guy who I would consider “dirty”. We really need guys like that.
"We lost so many games that we shouldn't have lost," - Ginobili, May 2010
Captain Jack and Gerald Wallace are both guys who I’d love to see in silver and black. If we could some how trade RJ and our pick for Gerald Wallace I’d be smitten.
"It's Manuway or the Highway" - tlo
Gerald Wallace is a great athlete, but he seems to be a bit fragile, had multiple concussions and injures. I wouldn’t necessarily call him a “dirty guy”, in a sense of this post. Not that I don’t like him, but he seems to me a bit different type of player.
"We lost so many games that we shouldn't have lost," - Ginobili, May 2010
Great post Manuwar, this is certainly a need of the team. Of all the players you listed there aren’t many that I think can still be as productive as we need or would fit the system. My guess is that one of our players would have to develop that attitude. Maybe Blair and Hill or maybe Splitter can be the bad ass, who knows.
"I've got Tim (Duncan) and you don't. That's the difference." -Gregg Popovich
I definitely see some “enforcer” type attitude in DeJuan. Hes literally just a kid, give him time.
The Spurs = Not your granddaddies 7th seed !
i don’t see that at all.. Blair smiles too much
by FreshmakerDTM on Jun 8, 2010 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes. There is nothing wrong with the way Blair plays or his attitude, I love him. But he isn’t the type of guy who can get down and dirty. Not yet at least.
"It's Manuway or the Highway" - tlo
He’s one of the few that actually stands up for himself and teammates, so I don’t doubt it with a year under his belt that he can become that player. In the playoffs he did maul Dirk once pretty good, while intentional or not, that can be debated.
Hill doesn’t seem to back down either, but I don’t think he’s got it in him.
This kind of player must be willing to be despised and disrespected by other players as well as entire city populations, while at the same time not having a screw loose.
by doggydogworld on Jun 9, 2010 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
People say Tim doesn’t intimidate enough.
Facial expressions don’t matter, it’s how you act.
"Whereas I never went fly like some of the boys." -- Ice
No one is putting down Timmeh. We need an enforcer though, aside from all the great things Tim does.
"It's Manuway or the Highway" - tlo
Oh yeah, I know, I’m just sayin’ a lot of the talk seems to be “we need someone like player X who makes angry faces and yells a lot” and that isn’t really a good sign of a dirty player. Like, Fish is dirty — great example. On the other hand… Matt Barnes? He’s a massive douchebag who makes trouble, but he isn’t really dirty. He just screams and yells and takes possessions off and plays shitty defense. And anyway — I think Blair has some enforcer-ish tendencies, he just isn’t a dirty player — nothing to do with his smiling, because it’s not like Fish smiling or Sheed’s smiling changes the type of player they are.
"Whereas I never went fly like some of the boys." -- Ice
yes, its how you act…
Blair smiles after a nice finish or an oreb putback going back down the court…seems a bit giddy.
Timmy has the same expression, business as usual.
by FreshmakerDTM on Jun 10, 2010 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Perhaps Timmy can decide to get nasty and be that player
"I've got Tim (Duncan) and you don't. That's the difference." -Gregg Popovich
I’d quibble that you should add Kevin Willis to the ‘03 team. I think his ONLY role on the team, besides designated old guy, was as team enforcer. I recall a game where some douche was hammering on Timmy, so Pop put Willis in there posted him up against the guy and Willis just blatantly clobbered him with an elbow. I can’t remember the game, but I do believe it was in playoffs.
What about Bonner?
"He was just a young skinny guy who looked like a winner. We didn’t know he was going to be as good as he is."
—Popovich on Manu Ginobili
Actually, Bonner is playing rather “dirty” though he is lacking athleticism and get called for the fouls too much. May be if he shaved his head and got couple tattoos, he would look more authentic as a bad ass.
"We lost so many games that we shouldn't have lost," - Ginobili, May 2010
what are you talking about, red hair is the first of sign of evil or something unwanted.
Evey- "Are you a crazy person?"
V- "I'm quite sure they'll say so."
V for Vendetta, blowing your mind away since 2005.
Yes, but he needs to look more intimidating.
"We lost so many games that we shouldn't have lost," - Ginobili, May 2010
like this?
Evey- "Are you a crazy person?"
V- "I'm quite sure they'll say so."
V for Vendetta, blowing your mind away since 2005.
Yes, that would be good. If you saw Big Baby yesterday, that was it.
"We lost so many games that we shouldn't have lost," - Ginobili, May 2010
Damn right, buddy. Raja Bell would fit us perfectly, but it might be too much.
I smell death... everywhere.
haa you can bring the parts from the world to build your castle :)
by cojones2thewall on Jun 8, 2010 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Raja isnt a free agent.
Say again?
...!!
by transgojobot on Jun 8, 2010 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Hes not listed on here as a free agent…
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=FreeAgents-10-11
The Spurs = Not your granddaddies 7th seed !
I would love to add Posey or Bell to the team. We need exactly that. Maybe James is a better fit because he could backup Jefferson while playing some at the 4 (he did it with boston, in fact their best lineup was with him playing the 4)
"Rock and Roll angels bring that HardRock Hallelujah"
Last I saw of Posey he looked like he had gained weight and wasn’t playing with any kind of intensity. If he could play for us the way he did Boston I am all for having him. And like you said he can play the 4 and stretch the D the way Bonner does.
"It's Manuway or the Highway" - tlo
Last I saw of Posey he looked like he had gained weight
Porker Posey?
...!!
by transgojobot on Jun 8, 2010 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Parker Posey’s not bad, either.
Just cause we're crippled, don't mean we gotta take the crumbs.
by silverandblack_davis on Jun 9, 2010 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Swing your Parker, Posey doe
And it may be the last time, I don’t know,
And oh by gosh and oh by Joe.
… We traded for Amare? Oh hell no!
"Whereas I never went fly like some of the boys." -- Ice
by DocRostov on Jun 11, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
+1.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jun 11, 2010 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions
IDK, there are different kinds of dirty players. I like the dirty that counts not the dirty that is just dirty. Kind of like the difference between real boxing & UFC. I dont think of Bowen as dirty but I would some of those other names. I think it’s good defense. Anyway, though
‘es Brasiliano yo escogo Tiago por que es guapo’ :). Not that, that adds validity to his game but heyyy he plays well enough on those spanish leagues, too.
We must do whatever it takes to get Thabo. He is the next Bowen (but of course not Bowen yet). He’s huge, a great defender, and a very dirty one. Sure he doesn’t have much to his offensive game, but he’s easily one of the top-5 defenders in the league and he can defend any position.
Maybe the Thunder will go for someone with some more offense for the 2-spot and unload Thabo? I don’t know, I’m just dreaming of a day where I can watch the Spurs and smile as I watch Thabo come off the bench and take a charge from Kobe. Never mind, refs never make calls against Stern’s children.
Evey- "Are you a crazy person?"
V- "I'm quite sure they'll say so."
V for Vendetta, blowing your mind away since 2005.
They already have that someone with more offense in James Harden. I think they’d be foolish to trade away Thabo but I’d LOVE to see him in silver and black next season. And I think him starting and Manu coming off the bench would be great for us.
Tony, Thabo, RJ, Duncan, Splitter as our starters. Georgie, Manu, Blair, McDyess off the bench. That is a 9 man rotation of all starter quality players. Now I’m the one dreaming..
"It's Manuway or the Highway" - tlo
Thabo could easily play the 3 – in fact, it’s his natural position, but OKC has a better option(obviously) at that position.
Free Tiago Splitter!
the OKC will never let Thabo go. He is a key component of their defense
"Rock and Roll angels bring that HardRock Hallelujah"
Yeah. I figure they re-signed him for a reason.
Off-Topic: OKC has the cap space to sign one marquee free agent this offseason. Imagine the same OKC team from this past season with a post scorer like Bosh. Oh, the destruction that would be wrought.
Free Tiago Splitter!
How would this affect their future cap space though? They’re going to have quite a few players moving into fairly large extensions in the next few years.
I thought a lot about this very move myself. OKC with Bosh would be a team with four dynamic scorers and could fit the mold of a Warriors or Suns run-and-gun especially with Westbrook at point.
Except guys like Kristic and Thabo can still play solid defense (or elite in Thabo’s case) and both Bosh and Durant are decent enough defenders.
Things could definitely get pricey, but I don’t think Jeff Green demands too much money. He’s an undersized PF who can shoot the ball well…….isn’t that pretty much Kevin Durant’s mold?
If Bosh comes in, Green becomes expendable to me (he probably wouldn’t start since Bosh is PF and Durantula SF).
C: Kristic
PF: Bosh
SF: Durant
SG: Thabo
PG: Westbrook
All they need is a better bench and this team could be scary good.
Evey- "Are you a crazy person?"
V- "I'm quite sure they'll say so."
V for Vendetta, blowing your mind away since 2005.
For some reason I’ve always seen green as more of a 3 than a 4
"I've got Tim (Duncan) and you don't. That's the difference." -Gregg Popovich
Same here but they have him as a PF simply because Durant is a better SF by light years. Green is good but he’ll demand too much money when he probably wouldn’t be starting if they get Bosh.
OKC would ask themselves which they’d rather have, Green or Bosh. And i can guarantee they would say Bosh without a second thought on the matter.
Evey- "Are you a crazy person?"
V- "I'm quite sure they'll say so."
V for Vendetta, blowing your mind away since 2005.
I think Green is a better PF than Rashard Lewis. Green can rebound and although undersized, he’s a decent defender who can match up with a LOT of different types. I think yall are underestimating both his current and future abilities. Looking at simply cost/benefit, (meaning just what you pay vs what they produce), i’d rather have Green than Bosh. I’d much rather have Green at 5-7 milion per year than Bosh at 12-20 per year.
As far as Bosh’s fit on the Thunder, they don’t need him. They have the best scorer in the league, They don’t need a big who is less than stellar defensively but can score lights out. Give Ibake a year or two (it’s not like Durants window is closing anytime soon), and he’ll be exactly what they need. A post player who makes smart decisions on offense (with the occasional spectacular play) and is a HUGE presence on D.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jun 11, 2010 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Could you imagine the terror that would come across the league if Durant gained weight and developed a pot game? More than a scary thought to have.
"I've got Tim (Duncan) and you don't. That's the difference." -Gregg Popovich
He would be way too stoned off his pot game in order to have his head in the game.
The Spurs = Not your granddaddies 7th seed !
by alamobro on Jun 11, 2010 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Caron Butler does not belong on this list. He is soft and our series against Dallas exposed that.
And i dont know if i could handle seeing Fisher in a Spurs uniform. Doubt he’d leave LA anyway.
Definitely agree with the general premise though that we need more toughness. I think Hill and Blair will both get there (to an extent) but we need a guy whos only role is to be nasty. Bogey had flashes of it, and even Rage showed some signs at some points in the season (one game early in the year someone fouled one of us hard and Rage got right up in his face), but we could certainly use an upgrade.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
I agree 100%. Its really not having the “dirty player” tag, but more of one (or 2) person enforcing the rule on tough D. In the current Finals, Artest fits this bill for LAL and Perkins and Davis for the Cs.
I would agree on Raja (if healthy) or Matt Barnes. I wanted Barnes for my Spurs since the 2007 slaying of Dallas by GS. My problem is Matt may not be Spur-like, which is A1 factor for Pop. Matt has been available since last year, (and on the cheap too). But Spurs find him too “tatooed” of a personality to fit. I do hope Pop and Buford take a good look at Matt.
For in-house talent, I would like to see Dejuan find his inner D’beast, which we have all seen in college. I think he can be our own Big Baby, without the drool, off the bench. He needs to be tougher on the low block D and the glass. I do hope he is spending his summer productively, like chopping logs or doing other Rocky Balboa-like regimen.
yahoo sports reported that Pop instructed him to eat nothing but freshly killed bunnies, fur and all.
Rim Rockin' Red Rocket -silverandblack_davis
by SpursfanSteve on Jun 14, 2010 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
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