Putting Tony's recent clutchness into a historical perspective
by J.R. Wilco on Apr 28, 2010 4:45 PM CDT
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Are you talking about me?
Tony Parker was awesome in the fourth quarter of Game Three. Then he showed some toughness in last night's Game Five. I liked what I saw from him so much that I wrote this.
Tony did something in Game 3 I’ve never seen him do; he hit clutch shots (three fourth quarter jumpers) and helped put the game away.
In last night’s Game 5, I saw him do something else I haven’t ever seen from him: he hulked up, like Manu does. What do I mean by that?
After Tony absorbed the flagrant from Najera, he did his usual lying-on-the-court-for-an-extended-period before getting up, but then, after the free throws, he drove right back into the lane and took another hard foul; this time, without a reaction of any kind. He nailed both FT’s and after a turnover by Dirk, he hit a pretty jumper.
This is exactly how Manu always reacts whenever a team roughs him up, but I’ve not witnessed another Spur take that mantle on. If you include Tony’s basket as he was fouled, then that’s the whole 7-0 run at the end of the 2nd quarter. Who’s to say whether he can continue to develop as a BAM (literally and figuratively) but as an optimist, I’m contractually obligated to find a silver lining in every game, and for me, this was Game 5’s.
SpurredOn disagreed with my comment about Tony's lack of clutch games:
That can’t be right. Game 4 @ CLE in the ‘07 Finals. Game 4 @ DEN ’05 first round. That’s just from the top of my head.
I started a reply to him that I lost all control of. So it's going here. Follow me beyond the jump as I get into the details of these games to see who's right, and who's toast. (I'm kidding SpurredOn: hopefully you'll enjoy this exercise too. It was meant in good fun.)
SpurredOn, let me take your second example first:
Game 4 @ DEN in '05, first round - The Nuggs took the first, and we won the next 4. Game 4 was DEN trying to equalize, and it was a nail-biter, going into overtime. The fourth quarter was very tense with back-and-forth buckets, Manu and Tony each hit a single shot toward the end of the 4th, but it was Duncan scoring 3 possessions in a row who'd claim crunch time honors in regulation time.
The overtime period did belong to Parker, as he took control after Timmeh fouled out. The Baguette helped the Spurs pull away to beat the DEN by 11, and while I'm not downplaying his role in the victory, a double-digit win isn't exactly what I'd call a clutch situation - overtime notwithstanding.
Now to your first:
Game 4 @ CLE in the ‘07 Finals -- I'd forgotten that the final score of the sweep game was this close: 83-82. While CLE did outscore the Spurs by 7 in the quarter they never had the ball with a chance to take the lead and the final score was due to a 9 to 4 CLE run in the last 16 seconds that consisted of them taking desperation 3 pointers versus our FT's - LeBron's final three was at the buzzer.
Anyway, what about Tony being clutch? I hear you asking. Well, as you can see from the play-by-play, all but 6 of the Spurs' 23 fourth quarter points were scored by Duncan and Ginobili (except for a Finley FT, and two Oberto buckets [assisted by Manu and Tim] one a 3 pt play). Parker didn't have any late-game heroics in that game.
I'm thinking that a four point victory (if not for LBJ's meaningless 3 as time expired) does not exactly equal a clutch situation, <em>especially</em> with us in a commanding 3-0 series lead. That series was not in doubt from the moment Game 3 ended with LeBron missing a shot to send it into overtime.
Maybe that's the game you meant:
Game 3 @ CLE in the ‘07 Finals -- this game's fourth quarter started with the Spurs up 5. Tony had 5 points in the quarter: a jumper with over 7 minutes left, and a 3ptr with 60 seconds remaining. That was a big bucket from Tony, as CLE had made a 10-2 run that pulled them to within 2 points. But that's not comparable, in my mind, to his recent Game 3 performance.
Which I'll detail now:
Game 3 against the Dallas Mavericks -- this fourth quarter started with DAL up by four, 70-66. The whole quarter was very close as you can see in this game flow. The first 4:10 of the quarter see the Spurs go on a 12-3 run, featuring Manu Ginobili and George Hill, to go up by 5. Then the Mavs go on a 8-2 streak to go up by 1. Which brings us to the final 3:02 of the game, and that's where the fun starts.
Three straight long jumpers from Tony Parker from 2:33 to :51 in the fourth quarter put the Spurs up by five points and force Dallas to foul and shoot threes for the remainder of the game. No one else on the court scores during this time. The game was in the balance. Dallas was was in deny-Manu mode. Tony took the game by the throat and shook until it game him its lunch money. He was carried the team in crunch time and that was that: end of story.
That's the kind of thing Manu does regularly. That's the performance that the team used to rely on Duncan for on a nightly basis. So, maybe there are other games out there that you guys can find. And if so, I'll be willing to consider them all to see if I've forgotten a previous <em>sustained </em>clutch-time performance of Parker's. But for now, I'll think of last Friday as the first time Tony showed me something like that. And I'm hoping it's not the last.
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Im glad Tony made those shots in game 3 and Im also glad that his jump shot has improved so much but while the ball was in the air for those shots… I HATED THEM! Seriously if Tony feels the need to be clutch couldnt he do it 2 ft from the rim? PLEAAASE??
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
Hq!
Those were definitely heart-in-throat moments for me. Can’t say as I’d like to repeat them .. unless the result is the same.
Seeding is for suckers, peaking at the right time is what counts. - Robbie Hilson
o;—-)
He did it again in Game 6 and guess what I felt less concerned that in game 3. If he keeps this up I can see myself perfectly comfortable with him shooting whenever he wants. If he was able to add that range do you think he can become proficient from 3pt range?
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
by LasEspuelas on Apr 30, 2010 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Where Tony still needs improvement is end of Q shot/pass selection. He either drives and shoots too soon or ends up with a forced in-between jumper, where he’s too close to pull up in rhythm yet too far from the rim to lay it in. Isn’t that how the first and second quarters ended last night?
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
I’m not going to go as far as saying that he’s awful in those situations, but when they happen, that’s just the word I’m thinking.
Manu is so money at the end of quarters (no, he doesn’t always make his shot, but it’s rare that the other team gets a basket/good shot because he’s started the play with too much time left) that it makes me crazy when both are on the court and Tony starts dribbling at the top of the key. AARRRGGGHH!
Louder, my minions. LOUDER.
o;—-)
He made 2 out 2 beyond the arc in Game 2 against Phoenix. Let’s hope he continues to shoot well.
In Manu, we trust.
by day_late_friend on May 7, 2010 1:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Tony hasn’t been un-clutch, his problem is Manu and Tim are more clutch. Tony has been, mostly, a solid clutch performer. I do not have the memory of an elephant so I cannot tell you in which games he was the most clutch, but I don’t have problem with him on the floor late in close games.
There’s a HUGE difference between
I don’t have problem with him on the floor late in close games.
and being comfortable with the ball being in his hands, with him taking shots while the game is in the balance at the end of the fourth.
That is what I mean by clutch.
Seeding is for suckers, peaking at the right time is what counts. - Robbie Hilson
o;—-)
There’s a difference between not having a problem with Parker being on the floor, and being comfortable with him taking the shot with the game on the line.
I’ve never been comfortable with that from him. If the ball is in his hands at crunch time, I’ve always wanted him to work it to either Manu or Duncan for a shot.
This is what I mean by whether someone is clutch or not. And until Game 3, Tony has never showed me that for a stretch of time. He’s hit buckets, sure. But there’s something different about being responsible for a run yourself. Sure, your teammates are there, but someone has to make the basket. And stepping up and making them while the defense is doing all it can to stop you.
Seeding is for suckers, peaking at the right time is what counts. - Robbie Hilson
o;—-)
That’s a good point. Clearly you want the ball in Duncan or Manu’s hands, but me saying that I don’t mind him on the floor is the same as saying if he ends up with the ball I think the odds are good he’ll do the right thing.
Parker has never had to prove his clutchness because of Manu and Tim. That’s a good thing, but it doesn’t necessarily mean he’s not clutch. I would argue that he’s not AS clutch, but it’s really semantics at that point.
I would also point out that being responsible for and overtime run seems to be right in line with your definition of clutch.
The Memorial Day Miracle comes to mind.
C.L.U.T.C.H.
Sorry for going Homer on you but that shot was as clutch as clutch could be.
And I agree, hadn’t really seen that from Tony before. I think it has something to do with George Hill starting and going lights out the previous game. Tony has to accept the sixth man role he’s been handed. To do otherwise would make him look bad since Manu has always flourished in this role without complaint. Watching George do so well in his starting role probably helped to light a competitive fire in him. Me thinks
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall. - Confucius
by raynorschiene on Apr 29, 2010 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Before that MDM shot, Elliot was known for disappearing in the 4th quarter of games. All it takes is one moment to change one’s perception of themselves and that fans’ perception of them. I don’t think Tony’s game 3 is the last time we’ll see him be clutch in a playoff moment.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
Agreed
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall. - Confucius
by raynorschiene on Apr 29, 2010 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions
First we have to define clutch or else we might be arguing two different things. Like you I think of clutch as taking shots or being a play maker when the game is in ballance towards the end of the 4th.
I for one have never thought of Tony as clutch. Even after his game 3 performance I still don’t. But like LD said, there’s something calming about him when he has the ball.
When Manu has the rock I’m always on pins and needles. I’m not sure if he’s going to throw it in between a defenders legs, go around him and make an impossible and 1 layup. Or simply drop it into the lap of a defender while trying the former. Obviously Manu succeeds more than fails, that’s why he’s Manu and that’s why we love him.
This might be something else to look into: In late game situations how often are teams denying Tony the ball, leaving Manu room to work his clutchness? In your latest A PTR Moment post you pointed out how when a defense makes one player it’s focus, another player can thrive.
So with all that, no I don’t think Tony is clutch but only because his opportunities are so limited due to playing with Manu.
"It's Manuway or the Highway" - tlo
I certainly wouldn’t put Tony in the category of Manu, Finley or Horry in terms of who’d I’d first choose to take a game winning or tieing shot. Those guys’ careers in those moments are top floor with the view. But I don’t consider Tony un-clutch. He hasn’t been asked to take most of those shots because we’ve always first gone to Manu or Timmy, so say nothing of Finley, Horry or Kerr. His missed shots in close games stand out but often he’s left with the ball late in the shot clock and is not a 3pt threat. If no one else is playing well we tend to ask him to bail us out with his speed.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
JRW – Got your note to come on over here to the fanpost. I like that you created this and I must first say you got me on one thing:
Maybe that’s the game you meant: Game 3 @ CLE in the ‘07 Finals
Yes, I did swap games 3 and 4 in my mind. I think those shots are just a critical, considering a CLE win makes it a series. That they came on the road is even more clutch. Not every big moment shot ends up as an NBA commerical or is replayed like a shot from Jordan or Horry, but Tony certainly didn’t shy away from the moment nor did he fail in the clutch.
The game at Denver stands out for many reasons. If we lose it’s 2-2 and now have to win a swing game 5 at home then come back to the altitude. Timmy was playing with a bad ankle so days off were critical. And some of the worse 4th Q officiating took place, all favoring Denver, led by Bevetta. I also recall Tony struggling, then receiving a pass in the corner from Manu and he hit the shot that gave us the lead, before Denver scored to force OT.
I remember Tony shooting that ball and thinking “oh no” based on his shooting to that point. But he made it. And since then, my anecdotal memory of evidence tells me that even when he’s had an awful game he is a clutch jump shooter, especially is he is catching and shooting.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
So what we’re debating about really comes down to the difference between what each of us thinks of as clutch. We just have different standards.
Tony has hit some important shots for the Spurs, and in your eyes, that makes him clutch. That’s fine; it’s just different than how I see it. Read the rest of these comments for the details, but suffice to say that I’m a bit more demanding of the players I use that word about.
Our “disagreement” makes more sense now though. Thanks for following me over here and clarifying. It’s appreciated.
Seeding is for suckers, peaking at the right time is what counts. - Robbie Hilson
o;—-)
Absolutely.
I think part of what hurts Tony in those clutch moments is that they call for a jump shot. But for him to take a jumper in big moments feels like settling, since he can beat almost anyone off the dribble. But in a pressure packed playoff game no one is going to let him get to the rim at that time of the game. Since he’s not a 3-pt threat it complicates how and where to take his mid-range shot and often he’s caught taking it as a last resort, without confidence and perhaps crowded by the defender. On those moments where he catches and shoots in rhythm or makes up his mind that he wants the jumper, he makes them as often as anyone so I do consider him clutch. My bias is that I recall those moments from yesteryear where I thought for sure he’d miss, except he made it. And his jumper has gotten better the past two seasons.
As a result, I expected him to make those shots at the end of game 3 and was not surprised that he did. Those shots in that moment feel to me as “that’s Tony” much like when Manu made the dagger 3 toward the end of games 2 & 4 I thought “that’s Manu.”
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
In spite of all the great play by Tony last night, I still yelled several times: “Tony, give it up!” as he was back to his old dribble for 17 seconds of the 24 second clock. Great post, JRW!
"Ginobili. . .He's weaving, he's throwing up triple axels in sneakers, he's willing the ball into the basket. It's Cirque du Soleil with refs." Dan Oshinsky / KENS 5
Rec’d, for plenty of reasons, but mostly for that photo.
"Ginobili. . .He's weaving, he's throwing up triple axels in sneakers, he's willing the ball into the basket. It's Cirque du Soleil with refs." Dan Oshinsky / KENS 5
Ever since 2007, I’ve been more than happy to have the ball in Mr. Parker’s hands with the game on the line. Manu and Timmy may get more touches, but Tony knows how to get it done when the chips are down.
"You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas." -Davy Crockett
"Give me an army of West Point graduates, and I'll win a battle. Give me a handful of Texas Aggies, and I'll win a war." -Gen. George S. Patton
9 to 4 CLE run in the last 16 seconds that consisted of them taking desperation 3 pointers versus our FT’s – LeBron’s final three was at the buzzer.
Was Damon Jones.
One of those jumpers TP made was off a pass from TD, who was in the paint and could’ve taken a contested, off-balance shot. But he passed it to Tony in the corner… so you could argue that Timmy thinks Tony is clutch. :)
What was neat about the sequence was that the ball went from Manu to Timmy to Tony to the bottom of the net. Appropriate.
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