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Why Mavs Fans Are Like That

"The Mavs are ghetto trash. We’ve given these losers enough hope! Kill em now!"
"Dirk tried to flop. Seriously, what a fag."
"Dirk’s days are numbered starting now."
"I got a bat and a ski mask all I need is a ride and the coordinates of Dirk’s impending locations."
"Where is my pistol, bitches are gonna die tonight."
"Dirk, you’re going to get hit by a semi on the 35."

I know we’re all in the heat of the rivalry, and Mavs-hating is the order of the day, but what do you think when you read comments like these? Not cool, right? I mean, I know that we’re completely dedicated to our boys in black and silver and their campaign of domination over Dallas, but this is way, way over the line. I know, you know, everybody here knows that this kind of BS is shameful, a disgrace. Homophobic slurs? Fantasies of violence against opposing players? Our community wouldn't stand for such nonsense, and no self-respecting Spurs fan would write this kind of garbage.

Star-divide

Of course, no self-respecting Spurs fan did. These comments didn’t come from Spurs fans – they were written by Mavs fans (replace ‘Mavs’ with ‘Spurs’ and ‘Dirk’ with ‘Ginobili’ or ‘Parker’) at PtR’s sister-blog, Mavs Moneyball in an open thread during Game 3 of the Spurs/Mavs series. And these aren’t the worst; when Manu’s nose got broken, the response was immediate and loathsome:

"can someone break Duncan's next?"
"parkers legs are next!!!"
"Gifloppy to the locker room. What a LOSER"
"Yay for Dirk breaking Ginobili's nose"    
"Someone needs to punch Ginobli and break his nose again"
"hope he ultra ruptures and contussion break his nose"

This isn’t news, of course. We’ve known it for years: while most fans for any team (Dallas included) are perfectly decent, and while any team is going to have some obnoxious fans, Mavs fans repeatedly sink to levels of abject suckitude that surpass any other fan base.  The question is: why?

Let’s be clear: Spurs fans are not "better people" than Mavs fans. So why are Mavs fans so vastly more predisposed to hateful behavior? Given the geographic proximity of Dallas to San Antonio, it’s a fair bet that there’s practically no difference between your average Mavs fan and your average Spurs fan in terms of cultural context or social expectations of conduct. So what’s the explanation?

The difference has to be in the teams themselves then, right? Well, yes and no. It’s certainly not about teams’ records; the Spurs are historically the much better team, but the Lakers have a similar record of success and their fans are notorious. Sure, the Spurs have four championships and the Mavs have zero, but plenty of perennial dogs have extremely positive and well-behaved fans. This isn’t just about the W/L – after all, in recent years the Mavs have done better in that regard than the Spurs have.

Is it about team character, then? Do disciplined, well-behaved teams have disciplined, well-behaved fans? Certainly San Antonio is widely held up as a model team in this regard, but while the Mavs organization has its disciplinary problems (Mark Cuban, anybody?) they’re surely no worse than plenty of other teams with much "better" fan bases. Hell, at one point a substantial fraction of the Wizards roster was potentially facing felony charges, but I’ve cheered our boys loudly at Spurs-Wiz games and never even been heckled. It’s not about the record, and it’s not about team character. So what is it?

The answer must lie in what it’s like to be a fan of a particular team. Sure, there are some obvious things that suck about being a Mavs fan. It’s like being one of the women from Beyonce’s ‘Single Ladies’ video, it’s like leading a bunch of hungry whitewater enthusiasts, it’s like being Gary Coleman when the cashier doesn’t notice that he wants to buy Doritos: you have no rings, your rafters are empty, and you’ve got no chips because you always come up short. But it’s not just about titles vs. lottery picks, it’s about the total fan experience. That’s an equation with a lot of variables.

What variables? Well, the team’s at the center of it, obviously. Then, beyond that Core there are the team’s Leaders – the superstars whose jerseys you shell out for. Beyond the concrete aspects of fandom, however, you’ve got the emotional components: the Anticipation surrounding a fresh new season or a playoff run. There’s how well your boys Perform against those expectations. And finally there’s the team’s history, the Storyline that you as a fan are part of. All these things can be rolled into a single formula with an incredibly contrived acronym. If you assign values to each component of the CLAPS fan-rating system, you should get a fair idea of how much fun it is to be a fan of any given team.

Let’s do it, shall we?
First off, let’s define the parameters:

Core:
This is your team as a whole. From your star starters to the end of the bench you need players you can love – maybe not every single one, but most of them for at least the most part. To have fun rooting for a team, you need both consistency and novelty: i.e., you need tenured guys who have a history with the squad, and rookies on the rise for fans to get excited about. You get a point for each.

Leadership:
Basketball, more than any other sport, revolves around those few key difference-makers. Even an NFL quarterback can’t represent the true spirit of the franchise the way an NBA star can. To really appreciate a team, you have to appreciate its leaders – both as players and as people. In this category you get a point if your top guys are true stars, and a point if you can be truly proud of the fact.

Anticipation
This part is simple: it’s a sport, and the games are played to be won. The higher your hopes, the greater your joy; take a point if your team expects to be playoff-bound, and another if you’ve got a non-crazy hope of winning it all.

Performance vs. Expectations
Hope has to meet reality eventually – but the trick to fan-tertainment isn’t just winning games, it’s outperforming expectations. Sure, until recently everybody expected LA to kill off OKC pretty quick, but whose fans were having more fun?  The curse of high expectations is that there’s no room to beat them; teams get a point if they can meet their fans’ expectations, and two if they can exceed them.

Storyline
Being a fan of a certain team means something bigger than just this year, just this squad, just this present moment. History matters. Tradition matters, and there are three types of history a team can have: pathetic, unremarkable, and exceptional. One point for the second, two points for the third.

That’s five categories in which a team can score 0, 1 or 2 points – add ‘em up and voila, a 0-10 rating system. So, let’s put the teams to the test.  Looking at the eight playoff teams coming out of the Western Conference, how much fun would you expect the fans to be having?

Core:

  • Lakers –  1 – It’s a solid team that’s stuck together for years, but there’s no real youth in the mix – Bynum’s been around too long (albeit in a limited role) to really call him an up-and-coming rookie.
  • Mavs – 1 – Dallas is a team in transition. Less than half their minutes are being played by guys who were on the roster two years ago, and two of their major role players have only been around for half a season. Beaubois seems to be worth getting excited about, though, and all the midseason acquisitions give fans something to hope for.
  • Suns – 2 – Solid on both counts; the core has been around forever, but newbies Lopez and Dragic are coming on strong.
  • Nuggs – 1 – A reasonably consistent core, with no major up-and-comers.
  • Jazz – 1 – The core’s been around for ages; the newcomers are nothing to write home about.
  • Blazers – 1 – This core hasn’t been around for long enough to really write a history for itself, and the newbs aren’t really rookies, but the team has had and overcome so much drama together that it gets honorary recognition.
  • Spurs – 2 – It’s still the same ol’ Spurs – but Blair and Hill inspire plenty of fan-love/man-love.
  • Thunder – 2 – The core IS up-and-comers; got to be a fun group to root for.

Leaders:

  • Lakers –  1* – Kobe is a legit superstar in every way – offense, defense, team leadership. I just despise him so utterly as a person that I could never enjoy rooting for him. If you’re the kind of person who doesn’t mind cheering on human scum, he’s the best you could ask for.
  • Mavs – 1 – Dirk puts up great numbers, but he’s never really been a complete package. He’s lousy on D, he’s petulant and whiny, and there’s just way too much to make fun of him for.
  • Suns – 2 – Nash is lousy on D, but you know what? He makes a team work the way few can, or ever have.
  • Nuggs – 1 – Carmelo is always very, very good, but never quite great (except in FIBA play). Billups? Same deal.
  • Jazz – 2 – I would love to be able to root for Deron Williams. He doesn’t get a lot of national attention, but he’s legit across the board.
  • Blazers – 2 – Roy’s the real deal – and when you factor in the injury woes he’s overcome (his own and others) it’s just that much easier to cheer for him.
  • Spurs – 2 – Only one man currently in the league can claim to definitively own the title of "greatest to ever play his position" … and he plays for San Antonio.
  • Thunder – 2 – Durant is a great player with a great trajectory. Good times.

 

Anticipation:

  • Lakers –  2 – Expect to win it all. Might not do it, but that’s the expectation for fans of defending champs.
  • Mavs – 1 – A tough out, but not serious contenders to win it all.
  • Suns – 1 – Kinda delusional to see them as more than a tough out in the first couple of rounds.
  • Nuggs – 2 – Not the favorites, but a contender.
  • Jazz – 1 – Were always grossly underrated as title contenders. Then Okur got hurt. They had a great season, but no real trophy-hopes.
  • Blazers – 1 – They got this far on pure guts. Sadly, this is as far as they’ll get.
  • Spurs – 2 – Never count out the silver-and-black.
  • Thunder – 1 – There will be plenty of years of legit title contention, but even if this should somehow turn out to be one of them it’s certainly not what Thunder fans expected.

 

Performance vs. Expectations

  • Lakers –  0 – It seems unfair, but really, the Lakeshow expected to dominate this year and they haven’t. They wound up with the best record out west, but they’ve been limping lately; there’s little shame in failing to live up to the loftiest possible expectations, but that doesn’t change the fact that they haven’t.
  • Mavs – 1 – Good season, won the conference; a workmanlike showing, about what you’d figure.
  • Suns – 2 – After being counted out early, came charging back strong.
  • Nuggs – 1 – Everybody figured they’d be pretty damn good. They are.
  • Jazz – 2 – Who saw them coming?
  • Blazers – 2 – The point system won’t let me give them a 3. This squad has been the definition of overcoming adversity.
  • Spurs – 1 – Started out softer than expected, finished stronger. Which, if you’ve followed the squad, is exactly what you should have expected all along.
  • Thunder – 2 – Did anybody see them making the playoffs this year? Well, here they are.

 

Storyline:

  • Lakers –  2 – One of the most legendary NBA franchises, both recently and historically.
  • Mavs – 0 – One of the most legendary-for-choking NBA franchises.
  • Suns – 1 – Despite never winning a ring, they’ve been around forever and have built a new kind of basketball that made the NBA fun again (for casual fans who don’t appreciate solid fundamentals or championships).
  • Nuggs – 1 – Never even taken a Conference title, but the Coach Karl story gives an edge of human interest to both their successes and their struggles.
  • Jazz – 0 – Since Stockton and Malone, Utah has been the perennial bridesmaid. It’s been more than thirty years, and still no ring.
  • Blazers – 1 – It’s been a while, but the franchise has been all the way to the top (and has successfully put the Jail-blazer era in the past).
  • Spurs – 2 – The winningest team in professional sports in recent history.
  • Thunder – 2 – This is a special case. OKC doesn’t have a history – they’re writing it right now. Which is fun.

 

So, where does that leave us? Let’s rank the teams by tally, with ties going to the smallest media market to make allowance for the obnoxious-bandwagon-fan effect. We would expect the happiest – and therefore most tolerable – fan bases to be:

  1. Thunder – 9
  2. Spurs – 9
  3. Suns – 8
  4. Blazers – 7
  5. Jazz – 6
  6. Nuggs – 6
  7. Lakers –  6
  8. Mavs – 4

 

You know what? The numbers don’t lie. Thunder fans have been blowing the roof off their Oklahoma City stadium since the franchise came to town – they’ve seen ultralousy seasons and totally unexpected success, and I’ve never witnessed, read, or heard about a single incident of ugliness coming from a Thunderhead (is that what they call themselves? If not, why not?).  The Blazers have had every tough break you could possibly imagine this season, but there’s no bitterness over at Blazers Edge; even coming off a blowout loss to the Suns, their fans are keeping it civil and cheering their hearts out.

Speaking of the Suns, that’s an interesting case of fan-rehab. We all remember a few years back, when the team kept coming up empty (especially vs. the Spurs) how intolerably whiny the PHX fans got. Back then it was all conspiracy theories about David Stern and threats to cripple Robert Horry – cut to 2010, you’ve turned underperformance into overperformance and added some exciting rookies to a veteran cast. Check out Bright Side of the Sun now. Perfect gentlemen, all.

What about the lower end of the spectrum? It’s tougher to judge, because the Mavs are a substantial outlier. However, we’d expect Lakers and Nuggets fans to be pretty dispirited, and sure enough – if you check out the comments at their respective SBN blogs you’ll see a lot of disparagement of their teams, particularly during their recent losses. Both teams still have great chances to win their first-round match-ups and head on towards their title dreams, but you still see fans talking about "being done with this team" or saying that they "just don’t care" about the team anymore. Spurs fans don’t say those things.

Even at that 6-out-of-10 rating, however, you don’t see the kind of ugliness that Mavs fans bring. Homophobic slurs, fantasies of violence against opposing players – of all the Western playoff teams, I’ve only seen that nonsense coming out of Dallas, and there it’s incessant. And, apparently, to be expected. That’s just what being a Mavs fan does to you. So no matter how the rest of this series goes, remember  the CLAPS fan-rating system when you interact with Mavs fans. Remember that, while there may be no excuse for some of their behavior, there is at least an explanation. Be grateful for your Spurs, Spurs fans. There, but for the grace of them, go we.

Comment 69 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Fear the Deer?

Just cause we're crippled, don't mean we gotta take the crumbs.

by silverandblack_davis on Apr 25, 2010 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Too long; didn’t read ==> TL; DR ==> Teal deer

The internets are a weird series of tubes.

by Rand on Apr 26, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks for explaining, rand. I hadn’t seen that TL-DR had morphed into an image. Love it.

Perspective is necessary before griping is appropriate.
o;—-)

by J.R. Wilco on Apr 26, 2010 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Holy crap, you learn something new every day. Thanks, Rand.

And here I was thinking he was a weird bucks fan.

Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed. ~ CMoney
I am happy. I am proud. ~ Manu Ginobili

by bellasa on Apr 26, 2010 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice. Very nice.

Just cause we're crippled, don't mean we gotta take the crumbs.

by silverandblack_davis on Apr 26, 2010 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

There are a lot of these out there too.

Seeding is for suckers, peaking at the right time is what counts. - Robbie Hilson
o;—-)

by J.R. Wilco on Apr 27, 2010 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Welcome to the playoffs

GO SPURS GO
SPURS 2010 NBA Champions (if team is healty LoL)

by Manu-20 on Apr 25, 2010 4:19 PM CDT reply actions  

I disagree on your grade for the Nuggets in terms of their young players. Lawson is a very exciting PG to get excited about. Afflalo is also a very good player in his second year.

In Utah you have Matthews and Fesenko both young exciting players.

In Utah, the storyline score is completely unfair. They were the nemesis of the Jordan Bulls for a long time although always on the loosing end. Its like the Joker in Batman he never wins but he is still remarkable.

I think it is a pretty good rating system but the rater is clearly biased ; )

"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG

by LasEspuelas on Apr 25, 2010 4:52 PM CDT reply actions  

i think if you’re looking for the difference between people from san antonio and those from dallas, the first place you should check is the proximity to oklahoma.

you ain't a beauty but hey you're all right.

by kalone on Apr 25, 2010 6:01 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Well crafted, kalone.

You get a JTU for that. And a rec too.

Perspective is necessary before griping is appropriate.
o;—-)

by J.R. Wilco on Apr 26, 2010 1:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

You can’t judge a fanbase based on a blog. Is SpursTalk representative of Spurs fans in general?

I smell death... everywhere.

by LatinD on Apr 25, 2010 6:57 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

SpursTalk is representative of humanity and it’s inevitable end.

I did a lot of soul searching. I didn't find anything.

by Hipuks on Apr 25, 2010 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

And PtR is representative of all the hope that is left to stop humanity from suffering such an end.

Just cause we're crippled, don't mean we gotta take the crumbs.

by silverandblack_davis on Apr 25, 2010 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

So, what you’re saying is that in a way, I’m mankind’s only hope? We’re really screwed.

by CapHill on Apr 25, 2010 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

What we’re saying is that, in a way, the best part of you is part of mankind’s only hope.

Can you sleep better now?

Perspective is necessary before griping is appropriate.
o;—-)

by J.R. Wilco on Apr 26, 2010 1:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

SpursTalk is representative of the pits of hell, with fallen angels cavorting around the bottomless pit just for good measure.

"You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas." -Davy Crockett
"Give me an army of West Point graduates, and I'll win a battle. Give me a handful of Texas Aggies, and I'll win a war." -Gen. George S. Patton

by Trey Felder on Apr 25, 2010 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good points Rand. In terms of the fans at team blogs, I really think the people who runs them, the influential (to the fan site) people who grace them and the most active members who participate in them will always shape the character and philisophy of its community. That is why I love PtR. You can be any type of fan but if you believe in the rules (written and unwritten) and (mostly) abide by them, you will have an enjoyable and stimulating time with a community that tries hard to mirror the personality of the Spurs – a winner and a class act.

by TD21 on Apr 26, 2010 12:00 AM CDT reply actions  

rand — what a terrifically thought out, well positioned, excellent post that was fun to read and also gifted PtR with two new acronyms:

CLAPS, of course, which you engineered into existance, but also,
ICA: incredibly contrived acronym

The already well known TLA (Three Letter Acronym) is fine, as far as it goes, but I far prefer ICA for circumstances such as these.

You’ll find that both of these terms now have their rightful place in The Lexicon.

Perspective is necessary before griping is appropriate.
o;—-)

by J.R. Wilco on Apr 26, 2010 1:47 AM CDT reply actions  

Geography has nothing to do with it, imho. The small-town/big-town dynamic might be a factor, but I think you hit the nail on the head about disciplined teams attracting disciplined fans.

Like many Spurs fans, I don’t live in San Antonio. (I did, but that was in the pre-Duncan era.) I suspect that many Spurs fans not residing in SA are fans, at least in part, because they appreciate the way they play together — as a team (not a bunch of spoiled superstars) — and a big part of that comes from Duncan’s personality and leadership.

A frequent criticism I’ve heard from LA and Dallas fans is that they don’t like Timmy because he’s ‘too boring.’ All I can say about someone like that is that they don’t appreciate (or understand) fundamentally sound basketball play, and they’re more interested in watching SportsCenter highlights featuring Kobe or Dirk instead of a complete, real game.

I doubt very many ‘garbage-spewing louts’ have the insight to appreciate a low-key superstar who plays the game the right way and with a burning desire to win, much less a team built around such a treasure. One thing that endears Charles Barkley to me is that he — despite getting into trouble sometimes over ill-considered remarks — genuinely seems to appreciate the way Duncan and the Spurs go about their business.

by TeamDefense on Apr 26, 2010 4:36 AM CDT reply actions  

But the louts are lining up to root for an awkward, hairy German who makes ugly snarling faces when he hits big shots?

Perspective is necessary before griping is appropriate.
o;—-)

by J.R. Wilco on Apr 26, 2010 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yup… because though Dirk may be low-key personality-wise, his 30+ pt. games make the nightly ESPN highlights and attract the attention of the louts. I’ll readily grant that he hits big shots and has big games against the Spurs, but I wince whenever I see him flail about like an awkward gangly teenager out on the floor.

To be fair, his fundamentals are probably better than his awkwardness make them appear to be, but they’re nowhere to the level of Duncan’s, except in the area of FT shooting. Duncan movements are so smooth and he’s in the right spot on the court nearly all the time, so that he often fools people into thinking that his play isn’t spectacular. And let’s not get started talking about his D…

by TeamDefense on Apr 26, 2010 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

So many words, yet still hypocritical.
smh.

"Mais put… Il est fou ce gars!"

by DOH on Apr 26, 2010 8:00 AM CDT reply actions  

So few words, yet so few points.

You, I mean. Not the Mavs. They talk a LOT.

by Rand on Apr 26, 2010 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

yet so few points.

we’re really not talking about the mavs?

GTFOML!

by the little o on Apr 26, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yep, its just one point.
God Bless.

"Mais put… Il est fou ce gars!"

by DOH on Apr 26, 2010 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok, Johnny Tightlips – can you offer an example or two of my hypocrisy? This isn’t Twitter; if it means the difference between a substantiated argument and empty griping, you could even stretch to 200 characters.

by Rand on Apr 26, 2010 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

You basically wrote a Column why “fans” from another team are “on levels of abject suckitude that surpass any other fan base.”

"Mais put… Il est fou ce gars!"

by DOH on Apr 26, 2010 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are you going to refute that point or are you agreeing with him? I’m confused.

by Big50 on Apr 26, 2010 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

1) Pointing out that Mavs fans are much worse than other teams’ fans is a positive rather than a normative statement, so it can’t be hypocritical. It could be wholly or partially false, but not hypocritical.

2) I assume that you’re trying to suggest that my pointing out that Mavs fans are much worse than other teams’ fans is in some way an example of me being a bad fan. If that’s your argument … how do you figure? I’m not flinging baseless insults; I go out of my way to demonstrate that the suckiness of Mavs fans is a substantiated, objective fact. Some facts are unpleasant, but you’d do better to blame the sucky fans rather than the observant commentators.

Even if I hadn’t provided substantial logical and evidentiary support for the assertion that Mavs fans suck, nothing that I posit even approaches the levels of God-awfulness that said fans churn out. Did I question Mavs fans’ sexuality? Insult their race? Threaten them with bodily harm?

No, I didn’t. I’m not a hypocrite, and I’m not wrong either.

GO SPURS GO

by Rand on Apr 26, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

You trash a group of people, using a small outlier to generalize their behaviour for all of them, forming a thesis that is hypocritical.

Mavs fans are much worse than other teams’ fans

Just go read some of the comments in here.

Then you go to great lengths to provide ‘reasonings’ that support your thesis, playing the judging part yourself..

What you’re doing here is not new in the World. It has been pulled (successfully) over and over again.

Just substitute Mavsfans with Jews.
Now read it again.

… demonstrate that the suckiness of Jews a substantiated, objective fact. Some facts are unpleasant, but you’d do better to blame the Jews rather than the observant commentators.

Riiight.

"Mais put… Il est fou ce gars!"

by DOH on Apr 27, 2010 2:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

“You trash a group of people, using a small outlier to generalize their behaviour for all of them, forming a thesis that is hypocritical.”
DAYUM. Godwin in the hizz-owse.

Let’s save the best for last. First off, I specifically indicated that I wasn’t referring to even the majority of the group (I think my exact words were “most fans for any team (Dallas included) are perfectly decent”). So, no. Also, you continue to appear to not know what the word “hypocritical” means.

I did read the comments on PtR, as well as on several other team blogs. I invite you to either cite some examples of the PtR community supporting the kind of homophobia and racism that I’ve pointed out in the Mavs community. Go on, I’ll wait.

Finally, a few last points:

- Putting ‘reasonings’ in quotes doesn’t make it a word, and it doesn’t call my own reasoning into question. Obviously some of the per-team assessments I make are subjective, and I’m very up front about that; the fact that reality seems to broadly support my judgments should be taken for what it’s worth.

- With regard to your closing weirdness, there’s another word game we can play: substitute everything I wrote above with “go to hell.”

by Rand on Apr 27, 2010 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

A)
 PTR is not representative for all spurs fans, just like some gamethread comments on MMB are not representative for all mavs fans. Yet those comments are taken by you to point a finger:


(We’ve known it for years: while most fans for any team (Dallas included) are perfectly decent, and while any team is going to have some obnoxious fans,)
Mavs fans repeatedly sink to levels of abject suckitude that surpass any other fan base. The question is: why?


Knowing full well
how fans from any sports team with sufficient fanbase (>3) react to a loss, above statement is hypocritical.

There’s not even a need to cite examples, we’ve seen and heard them really often enough.

If you never even heard of hateful statements from sports fans [before you’ve read your casus belli], it is of course not hypocritical in your book. I sincerly doubt it. Do you live on an Island? Don’t you use the Internet?

B)

[…]the fact that reality seems to broadly support my judgments should be taken for what it’s worth

Riight, Judge Dredd.

C)

go to hell

 You’re calmly climbing to destroy your thesis.

"Mais put… Il est fou ce gars!"

by DOH on Apr 27, 2010 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Re: A) You’ve kindly reiterated what I explicitly stated (that all teams have some lousy fans), and demolished a strawman which I never asserted (that PtR is representative of all Spurs fans). I use SN blogs as proxies for the widely-observed phenomenon of how lousy Mavs fans are – I could have used other sampling methods, but since I’m writing on an SN blog this seemed appropriate. If these blogs aren’t suitable proxies, are you saying that the PtR regulars are an unusually wonderful bunch? Are you saying that MMB regulars just happen to be atypically crappy Mavs fans?

Also, even if you think I’m wrong (and you’re awfully reluctant to offer evidence to that effect), I still see no way in which anything I’ve written could be considered hypocritical. In the words of the great Inigo Montoya: that word … I do not think it means what you think it means.

Re: B) Ummm … okay…

Re: C) You compared my blog-post about basketball fans to antisemitic, genocidal propaganda. “Go to hell” is the mildest conceivable response to that kind of garbage, and between us my moral stature come out substantially cleaner from the exchange.

by Rand on Apr 27, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

- So you’ve never heard or read similar stuff from other fans before? Never been to Spurstalk? Really? Ok, then it’s of course not hypocritical. My bad. Small World. On the other hand, keep it that way.
- Neither nor….such generalisations are [hypocritical] your suit. ;)
- Hey, it’s successfull propaganda. “Go to hell” is also a good first step. Your moral stature will surely help to prevent any further step.

"Mais put… Il est fou ce gars!"

by DOH on Apr 27, 2010 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Okay, this ends here:

A hypocrite is one who declares the existence of a normative standard of behavior while deliberately violating it. So, it would be hypocrisy for me to say that it is “wrong” to be an obnoxious basketball fan while simultaneously being an obnoxious basketball fan. However, stating that Mavs fans are substantially more obnoxious than other teams’ fans CANNOT POSSIBLY BE HYPOCRITICAL, because it is a positive rather than a normative statement. I could be Adolf Hitler in a Spurs jersey, and it would still not be hypocritical for me to say that Mavs fans are worse than other teams’ fans. I could be wrong, I could be lying, I could be insane, but not hypocritical.

Other notes:

“Neither nor….such generalisations are [hypocritical] your suit.”

The PtR community is beyond question less hateful and offensive than the MMB community. Therefore: Spurs fans in general are less hateful and offensive than Mavs fans, and/or PtR boasts better-than-average Spurs fans, and/or MMB boasts worse-than-average Mavs fans. That’s not generalization, that’s basic set theory. And I don’t know what you mean by my “suit.” Are we talking cards or clothing?

“Hey, it’s successfull propaganda. "Go to hell" is also a good first step. Your moral stature will surely help to prevent any further step.”

This statement makes no sense whatsoever.

by Rand on Apr 27, 2010 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Please, guys, let’s stop this. Take it to private e-mail.

I smell death... everywhere.

by LatinD on Apr 27, 2010 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Haha – methodical, fundamental, grind-it-out defense may not be fun to watch … but it’s the Spurs way, dammit!

by Rand on Apr 27, 2010 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Well played.

Seeding is for suckers, peaking at the right time is what counts. - Robbie Hilson
o;—-)

by J.R. Wilco on Apr 28, 2010 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

this gets a rec

GTFOML!

by the little o on Apr 28, 2010 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah I live in the metroplex and Dallas fans are horrible when winning but surprisingly quiet when they lose

"Mr. Gilmore deserves to be in the Basketball Hall of Fame damnit. Highest field goal percentage EVER"

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html

by Joe deLarios on Apr 26, 2010 9:20 AM CDT reply actions  

That rings true for most fans. Losing usually takes the air out of any fans sails.

by Big50 on Apr 26, 2010 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

All sports teams have their good, bad, and horrendous fans (I’ve sat next to some baaaad Spurs fans)… it does feel like (to me) the Mavericks have a disproportional amount of horrendous fans but I’m sure this is because of me being a Spurs fan.

And to quickly destroy my neutral statement… I’ve never heard of a local sports media member throwing fits like this before.

"We suck on 'D. Both individually and team-wise, we suck. We're pretty consistent that way. I don't know if I have an answer to that. If I did, we wouldn't suck quite so bad." - Popovich

by Aaron "Hirschof" Preine on Apr 26, 2010 2:22 PM CDT reply actions  

Wow, I think that you may have just made Rand’s point with that link….the comments don’t help the Mavs either…of course some of them don’t make Spurs fans look good either.

by Big50 on Apr 26, 2010 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

True. Any site can become a haven where ignorant sports fans can spew their spite and logic takes a backseat to idiotic prejudices. That’s why I appreciate PtR, but also why I give people the benefit of the doubt during Game Threads. In the heat of the moment, we all type really stupid things (as I did last night). Hopefully though, outside of the games, we can all promote rational discourse.

There are always exceptions to the rules (for me), which is why it’s a good thing I don’t have to interact with Sooner fans on a daily basis anymore. :)

by CapHill on Apr 26, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, Sooner fans…they’re just difficult. : ) You make great points though.

by Big50 on Apr 26, 2010 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

There’s also the “Cuban factor” — if an owner is perceived to act like a drunken lout (at least at times), perhaps some of his team’s fans feel entitled to do the same? :P

by TeamDefense on Apr 26, 2010 3:40 PM CDT reply actions  

This is actually a very good point. I’m with you on this one.

Perspective is necessary before griping is appropriate.
o;—-)

by J.R. Wilco on Apr 26, 2010 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

I second the above. I think its prob more important than one might think in the context of Mavs.

by LionZion on Apr 27, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Game thread or no, you learn a lot about people with how they respond to pressure. Making emotional statements about an opponent being dirty, soft, weak, a jerk, ass or something along those lines makes since in the context of competition. I’m sure players think those things about opponents from time to time. When your first inclination is to target ones skin color, heritage, sexual orientation or want for them to be hit by a semi, you’ve got a stunted growth IMO.

I can see typing of your own player “Make the f’ing shot you over priced bench warmer!” I can’t imagine replacing bench warmer with a slur. But that’s me.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Apr 26, 2010 4:19 PM CDT reply actions  

SpurredOn, what’s an “opponent”? I think I could get the point of your comment if I knew what an “opponent” was.

Ohhhh, I get it! You mean oppenent. I understand now.

Never mind.

Perspective is necessary before griping is appropriate.
o;—-)

by J.R. Wilco on Apr 26, 2010 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Gotcha.

You gotta bring ass to get ass.

by SpurredOn on Apr 27, 2010 3:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

How do you know the Mavs fans who posted those comments aren’t teenagers? I know Mavs fans personally, I live in Dallas. The Mavs fans I know wouldn’t condone these comments. And believe me, I’ve read some pretty dumb ass comments from Spurs fans too.

And damn you for making me take up a position defending Mavs fans.

Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed.

by CMoney on Apr 26, 2010 9:04 PM CDT reply actions  

Ill join you in objecting to this line of thinking. It is pure generalization and Im sure you can find degenerate fans for every franchise.

"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG

by LasEspuelas on Apr 26, 2010 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

No you can’t. Ask Rand…as in, KrugerRand. :)

"Mais put… Il est fou ce gars!"

by DOH on Apr 27, 2010 1:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wait, I thought I was a Nazi. Now I’m a Boer too? Damn I suck.

Go to hell.

by Rand on Apr 27, 2010 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Been there for 48 Minutes, thanks.

Btw, Sorry CMoney.

"Mais put… Il est fou ce gars!"

by DOH on Apr 27, 2010 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

At least you’ve kept your sense of humor though all this.

Seeding is for suckers, peaking at the right time is what counts. - Robbie Hilson
o;—-)

by J.R. Wilco on Apr 28, 2010 12:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

DOH, I have to say that in addition to rand’s defense of himself above, he also stated in his piece that:

Spurs fans are not “better people” than Mavs fans.

Did you read his entire original post? If you didn’t, your responses are understandable. Please go back and read it all, because he’s not making the case you think he is. If you did, then I’m wondering why you’re only reacting to the inflammatory parts of his post instead of taking them in the context of his whole argument.

His point is that any fanbase that has gone through the trials that Mavericks fans have endured would have accumulated enough pain to feel warranted in dishing some back themselves.

In fact, if I had to write a synopsis of “Why Mavs Fans Are Like That” I would say: Any sufficiently tortured fanbase will have a minority that responds to continued trials with comments that embarrass the rest of said fanbase.

Or in other words:

There but for the grace of the Big 3 (plus Robinson) go we.

That doesn’t sound like an attack on Mavs fans to me. I encourage you to reconsider your stance.

Seeding is for suckers, peaking at the right time is what counts. - Robbie Hilson
o;—-)

by J.R. Wilco on Apr 27, 2010 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don’t buy the thesis that a specific group of people’s

suckiness is a substantiated, objective fact.

Using some overboarding gamethread comments to generalize [The Thread title is accidentially not “Why some Mavs Fans are like that”, d’oh! ] for a group is ….something else.

Group 1, we are not better than Group 2.
[…]
Group 2 is really much worse than every other Group. Here’s why…

Be happy, Group 1.

Neat.

As for the Synopsis:

Any fanbase will have a minority that comments so that it embarrasses the rest of said fanbase.

"Mais put… Il est fou ce gars!"

by DOH on Apr 27, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Poor reading comprehension is not an argument. I’ll help you with that synopsis:

- Spurs fans, we are not “better people” than Mavs fans
- Yet, Mavs fans act much worse than other fan bases – this has been widely noted, and here are some more examples…
- There is a reason for this phenomenon: rooting for the Mavs is inherently a relatively unpleasant pastime.
- Be happy, Spurs fans; even when our team has problems, we should be grateful that the organization isn’t a factory for personality disorders like the Dallas Mavericks.

by Rand on Apr 27, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mavs fans act much worse than other fan bases

Overestimated someones Life experience, keep believing.

"Mais put… Il est fou ce gars!"

by DOH on Apr 27, 2010 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow – in a mere six words you’ve managed to defy all known laws of grammar, punctuation, capitalization, verb tense, and rhetorical structure.

I guess Godwin’s law is a gateway.

by Rand on Apr 27, 2010 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

I read the entire thing and I know I’m going to regret commenting…

::It’s not too late… stop. Please for the love of the FSM, just stop::

However, it’s just Rand’s opinion. There’s no factual basis for his stand. I took his post as his personal view of Western Conference fans psyche. No more, no less.

For every wonderful positive thinking Spurs fan, I can show you a rowdy, jerk fan. There are great, bad and so-so fans. Every team has them. Some more than others. Hell… have you ever checked this place out when we lose? Not our finest moments…. but we try to keep it in check.

It’s all about perspective…. we think some of the Mavsmoneyball folks are immature and mean. Well guess what… we’ve been called those names by Bright Side of the Sun.

Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed. ~ CMoney
I am happy. I am proud. ~ Manu Ginobili

by bellasa on Apr 27, 2010 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

C’mon, you’re doing it wrong now.

Has he not proven why Mavs have the most and worst of them?

Ah, just kidding. Everything for the FSM. :)

"Mais put… Il est fou ce gars!"

by DOH on Apr 27, 2010 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Too funny, I had an internal debate on whether to do the strike out or the thinking to myself colons. ;)

Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed. ~ CMoney
I am happy. I am proud. ~ Manu Ginobili

by bellasa on Apr 27, 2010 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Haha, it’s okay bellasa … and for the record, no, it’s not just my opinion. There’s absolutely an objective factual basis for my stand, and I cite it right up front.

Sure, there are jackass Spurs fans – I say as much. But c’mon, have you ever known PtR to start throwing racial and homophobic slurs around? Have you ever known PtR to celebrate when an opposing player gets hurt? That goes way, way beyond any of the whining or gloating that is every fan’s inalienable right.

by Rand on Apr 27, 2010 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

All fan bases can’t possibly be balanced the same way. Some will have more crap. Some will have a more apathetic base. Some will have more money(Lol…i am still not sure who a LA fan is, but thats my loss).

Also, like-minded ppl like to toot each others horn and naturally they congregate, much more so on the internet. “Toot each others horn” I mean as enjoy each others company. Very much like we here at PTRockers do. I don’t want to go into the saintly qualities of the average PTRer or the normal ones of the average SpursTalker. Each blog clearly reflects the qualities of the readership. Both blogs combined don’t tell squat about the average fan base.

The Mavs Moneyball does clearly reflect certain qualities. And they are usually quite different from the readership here at PTR.

The above fanpost can work as a localized concept.

After the “trade Manu” and now siding with Cuban fans, CMoney has earned himself a timeout from the blog :p

by LionZion on Apr 27, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

It’s been a rough week for you.

by CapHill on Apr 27, 2010 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

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