Setting A Pick Is An Art And That Makes Me Happy
Before Friday night's game against the Memphis Grizzlies, I got the great pleasure to talk pick and roll offense with Spurs Assistant Coach Mike Budenholzer. Coach Budenholzer is the Spurs lead assistant coach and has been an assistant coach with the Spurs for 14 years. He's the guy that got the privilege of coaching the team after Popovich got ejected against the Mavs. I think maybe Coach Budenholzer is the calming influence of the pair.
It wasn't an interview. It was more of a conversation. Buried in the discussion were a bunch of great nuggets. The best though was his description of the pick and roll in general. It appealed to me at every level of my being. Yeah, I know that sounds ridiculous, but it spoke to me in a way that is worth explaining.
"Tell me your secrets or die."
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VS |
"Tell him and die."
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How would you like to be Coach Budenholzer caught between these two guys?

That's me talking to Coach Budenholzer. I'm the old geezer in the middle. I will say that I did get carded the night before this. And to answer a common question, yes, that is me in my avatar. Crazy, isn't it?
(Picture by JanieAnnie)
You can skip this personal ramble if you like and go straight to my bits of knowledge I gained. Just go down to the section labeled "Coach Bud Talks Pick and Roll"
My Crazy Self
I believe life is complicated. I don't believe in black and white. I don't believe in truth and honesty. I don't believe there is one right way to do anything. I believe there is compassion and goodness in everybody. I believe that damn near everything in the world has degrees of subtlety and that what you bring to the table helps to construct your vision of things, and the truly gifted are the ones who understand this and make the effort to see the world through the eyes of others.
I believe that in order to make good decisions, you have to understand the consequences of the results of your decision. You have to understand how those results will be viewed by others. You have to put yourself in another person's shoes, make a decision about how you think they will see it, and then be prepared for the fact that you would completely misjudge their viewpoint. Then you have to adjust. Then you have to do it again, adjusting all your viewpoints with this little bit of knowledge gained.
That's how I live my life. Every event is a moment of learning. Every decision is a moment of introspection. I like to think about how what I do will be perceived by others. I like to think about the subtleties of the way an email is read. Or the way a phone call is interpreted. I recently had a fairly heated discussion, he called it beerboarding, about what honesty was and whether there really is such a thing. I argued against it. I think that everybody has their own version of the truth. I think to believe otherwise is foolish. I think that every interaction is part of a large game of manipulation. And I don't believe it is inherently bad.
It would probably come as no surprise to you that one of my old manager's called me "Mr. Philospher Guy". He thought me considering how we interacted with one of our software vendors was just bizarre. He thought we should, "Just tell them what we need and move on." I liked to consider the ramifications of our actions and how they might impact further interactions with the vendor. I think this was lost on him.
I don't think everybody should be like me. First, it makes for an argumentative friend. Second, it makes for long work meetings. Third, it makes for a mean drunk because I can spend hours interrogating you and assassinating your character with a smile on my face. What it does allow me to do is valuable, however. I can rationalize anything. I can find the good in anybody and the bad in everyone. I like both parts of them. The good and the bad. I mean, look at bellasa. She's mean as a snake and unforgivingly ornery. She's also got a heart as big as Texas and is one of the most generous people I have ever met. She's completely, unapproachably cantankerous and invitingly kind. She's done more for the readers of this site than anybody could ever imagine or will ever know. Yet, she scares me. She's a microcosm of everybody I have met through PtR. Kind and beautiful. Quirky and flawed. We are what we are. Expect it, accept it, and love it.
So yes, I look at the world through multi-faceted lenses. I believe there is a lot more to the Spurs than meets the eye. I believe that they are "Mr. Philosophy Guys". One of the things I have always admired about Gregg Popovich is that he never seemed to take the humanity out of the game. The people that play it aren't machines. The people who ref it aren't machines. The people who coach it aren't machines. Mistakes are made. You move on. You can have humor and humility in basketball. You can have anger and egos in basketball. They are all pieces of the puzzle of life. You can't remove those from the game of basketball when it is played and reffed and coached by people.
Coach Bud Talks Pick and Roll
"Running the pick and roll", he said then hesitated. He moved his hands searching for a word, "is", and hesitated again. Moved his head side-to-side, "dynamic". "I was going to say an art form", I said. He responded with "yeah". He went on to explain that each player has to find their own way of running it. You can't just teach it. There are things they want guys to do, but they have to figure a lot of it out on their own. Man, what a great answer. Game. On.
That isn't how the conversation started. It started with "One of my readers made the comment that DeJuan Blair's sets really weak picks. I'd like to know about what the pick setter is doing so I can either agree or disagree with my reader with something bordering on facts. Not just me making stuff up." (Not that I'm really adverse to making things up. I do it all the time.)
Now, as you can probably imagine, he didn't know where to go from there. I mean, that is a pretty tall order. Explain the pick and roll. To somebody whose basketball knowledge is an unknown to you. In all honesty, I don't even know what came next. I probably talked to him for 5 minutes, or knowing me 10 minutes since time seems to fly when I'm this engaged in discussion, and I wasn't recording it so I'm not even going to try to repeat it. Like I said, it wasn't an interview. It was a conversation. I just had a single statement to go on and I went.
He did say that DeJuan sometimes sets poor picks (and said Kurt Thomas set great ones). As the discussion continued, I learned that what he considered a poor pick wasn't necessarily something I'd be able to recognize. The times they need DeJuan to really get in there and take a guy out are times when parts of the play BEFORE the pick are set up to make it happen. I don't think any of those times are when you just run out to set a high screen for Manu. It has a lot to do with where his defender is at the time. Sheeesh!
One point that became very clear, because he emphasized it, is that they try not to over-coach it. Even with DeJuan, he has to learn it on his own. Coach Bud said DeJuan has great instincts for the game and for the spacing and you have to let him use those to learn how to play the pick and roll. He said you also have to realize that guys don't have eyes in the back of their head. You and I can see the play unfolding behind a player, but they can't.
The other main thing I was interested in, which turned out to be a very simple answer, was what an illegal screen was for the man setting the pick. I know that if you step out and shoulder a guy they will call a foul, but what about when you roll to the basket? When is that a foul and when isn't it? Well, the answer was that a foul is when the defender gets banged into. Period. I felt very unsatisfied. I was expecting something a little more subtle and technical. However, it lead to the discussion of setting picks for Tony where you are digging in a little closer to the basket. Daring, if you will, the defender to go over the pick. Most of you know that teams try to play Tony by going under the pick.
What I found interesting because it is so obvious, is that Tony isn't expected to get a lot of assists on the pick and roll. In fact, he rarely should pass to the pick man. Why? One, because there is no room. They try to push the defense closer and closer to the basket. Which makes the floor crowded with people. Which makes a pass much harder. Two, Tony's picker needs to hold the pick longer and not roll. Unlike when Manu runs the pick and roll with his pick man just inside the 3-point line. They have a lot more space. Thus, the pick man should roll more and Manu will pass the ball to him more resulting in more assists.
To sum up, it is a really complicated play. I think I have a lot better understanding of what the Spurs try to get out of it with the different players involved in the different areas of the court, but evaluating any particular player's skills at it is going to be tough. I have my work cut out for me.
Just Getting Started
You know what? That was the second best conversation I had with an assistant coach that night. I asked another coach a question from our Laker troll Olf.
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Comments
Glad you are having cool opportunities to interact. Give us some more nuggets of how the convo went :P I would like to devour every word of what he said.
Let me see if I can trivialize this : Did coach Bud say they don’t really want Tony passing near the basket on a p&r? I can agree with that line of thinking since Tony is an excellent finisher in the paint.
I get the overcoaching part. But, as opposed to before, the team has a deadline now. Another title before Timmeh calls it a day. With new personnel who can catch really slick passes in the paint(Blair) and also gasp dunk(feed the Rage), Tony hasn’t shown much variety in his drives. So he is still unguardable as long as he has his quicks, but anything slowing him down, Tony is limited in his options down there. At which point does the coaching staff plan to do something about that. Maybe these are consequences of a smaller playbook.
As much as I admire our coaching staff, their methods this season does leave a bit to be desired. I really think they could have done a better job of acclimatizing Rage, especially on offense. I still think we should be doing lobs and alley oops to Rage not just in the first two minutes of the game, but even the last two mins of every quarter. Keep the other defense hopping. Until Manu or Tony gets back to full He-man self, we gotta keep the energy up with other ppl.
It’s not that they don’t want him passing, it’s that he can’t pass. And they expect it. Next time Tony plays, pay attention to two things. One, where the pick gets set. It is much closer to the basket than for Manu. Two, what Tony’s defender does. Most team’s try to go under the screen and force Tony to shoot. Because they are closer to the basket AND because Tony’s man is going under the screen, there is a much higher body density that makes a pass prohibitive.
Granted, he didn’t say it like that. But I think that was the gist of it.
On the other hand, compare it to when Tony run the pick and roll a little higher — say with Tim — and they try to trap him — like they frequently do with Manu — and you will see Tony pass the ball to the pick man more.
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Feb 2, 2010 9:21 AM CST up reply actions
superb. this is the sort of thing i like to read, a little bit of an insight into basketball mechanics from a coaching point of view, without it being too technical (i remember reading an article on running the princeton offense and getting a bit overwhelmed by the 4th paragraph and 6th drawing).
free george hill!
by sleep research facility on Feb 2, 2010 9:36 AM CST reply actions
Great read, thanks for the insight. I guess it now makes more sense why the picks that TP receives are usually held for longer, as they are to allow him to create some space/mismatch, giving him a better opportunity to score. In contrast, picks set for Manu allow him the opportunity to either drive to the basket and score or create an opportunity for someone else, which he’s pretty damn good at.
I’m glad you shared this with us, I guess when it comes from the coaching staff as far the the philosophy the team has running the pick-n-roll, it changes my views on things. I still think sometimes TP hold the ball a bit too long or dribbles too much on certain possessions, but he’s just going with what the team asks of him.
One of the things I have always admired about Gregg Popovich is that he never seemed to take the humanity out of the game. The people that play it aren’t machines. The people who ref it aren’t machines. The people who coach it aren’t machines. Mistakes are made. You move on. You can have humor and humility in basketball. You can have anger and egos in basketball. They are all pieces of the puzzle of life. You can’t remove those from the game of basketball when it is played and reffed and coached by people.
Beautifully said, Wayne. It’s that outlook on life I enjoy so much about the Spurs, about PtR, and about you.
I have flying monkeys at my disposal, and I'm not afraid to use them.
I think you are an INTJ
"Mr. Gilmore deserves to be in the Basketball Hall of Fame damnit. Highest field goal percentage EVER"
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html
Haha. I’ve had long discussions, no surprise, with friends about that.
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Feb 2, 2010 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
Is it time to conduct a PtR-wide Myers-Briggs assessment? Or perhaps the Keirsey temperament sorter? Because hilarity might ensue.
I have flying monkeys at my disposal, and I'm not afraid to use them.
a link for those who don’t know?
"Mr. Gilmore deserves to be in the Basketball Hall of Fame damnit. Highest field goal percentage EVER"
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html
Please – that would be a lot of fun. I love this stuff.
Silly things do cease to be silly if they are done by sensible people in an impudent way. - Jane Austen
I will, I promise. It might take me until tomorrow sometime, as I am leaving work to meet a prospective board member for coffee, then taking camera equipment to someone covering Super Bowl media week for the Onion, then having dinner with my parents and brother (and I will be able to reply with actual information to your recent email after that) and then I am somehow supposed to fit in an upper body workout and finish my laundry before I go to work again tomorrow.
I want my hermit-y old useless life back. . . .
I have flying monkeys at my disposal, and I'm not afraid to use them.
I’m anxiously awaiting this. Not because I’m curious about others but because I want you all to know so much about me and how I’m oh so interesting and cool.
"I will five all over this blog." - JRW
by Manuwar on Feb 2, 2010 3:45 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
A long time co-worker and friend says I am an IXTJ.
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Feb 2, 2010 1:07 PM CST up reply actions
You’re a beer?
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Feb 2, 2010 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
Now that’s a good question for the Super Bowl media frenzy. If you were a beer, what kind of beer would you be? Beats a tree any day of the week.
Silly things do cease to be silly if they are done by sensible people in an impudent way. - Jane Austen
Kostriker Swarzbier!
what is an IXTJ? intuitive x-man thinking judging……..?
"Mr. Gilmore deserves to be in the Basketball Hall of Fame damnit. Highest field goal percentage EVER"
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html
Mmmmm, Kostriker Swarzbier. That’s what I drank when Graydon and I met up over the holidays.
X is for being half of both, I believe.
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Feb 2, 2010 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
This was great. I think the pick and roll is one area where Dejuan seems beyond his years: as far as spacing and timing goes. Pick placement will be a bonus, but Blair has a good feel for when to roll.
Defense and back to the basket offense, are where he is lacking, speaking as an all-state TAPPS 5 spot, 1999.
Neither he nor Gob were prepared for the challenges of using cats to catch a seal.
Awesome, Wayne. The first few sentences you wrote under “My Crazy Self”, I immediately thought, wow, this guy is a philosopher. I came from a Jesuit school and we were taught to appreciate people with that kind of approach to life, so consider me a fan, too, of not just WVATS the blogger but also Mr.Philosopher Guy.
Did you ask Bud who he thinks are the best P&R combinations that we have? Obviously we have Tony and Tim, and Manu and Tim, or maybe Blair and Manu. But now that we have a lot of weapons, we’ve seen some diversification lately. I for one, like more Manu/Tony and RJ plays. I’m curious though as to who they think are most effective with it.
by silverandblack_davis on Feb 2, 2010 7:28 PM CST reply actions
I still think Blair sets weak picks. I dunno. I’ll watch more closely the next game.
Very good insight on this writeup though.
"Yes, it's important that I have good numbers, and I'm well-respected as a player. But I think it's more important that I'm respected as a man." - Some Tall Guy Who Wore #50
Very nice read, Mr. Philospher Guy. Can I call you Philospher for short?
Also:
I don’t believe in truth and honesty.
That is an excellent trait to have as a mod of a website.
To serve man.
Gustatus similis pullus.
OK, I hadn’t opened this post until now. I wanted to wait until I had some time to read it. (I am not opposed to learning something – even from Spur people - OK that thought just made me shudder.)
So I just read (and enjoyed) it. But then saw this:
That was the second best conversation I had with an assistant coach that night. I asked another coach a question from our Laker troll Olf.
Say What Now. . .??
Which of these things is not like the others? 15 NBA Championships, most wins in NBA history, current NBA champions, lost by 20 to the F'ing Spurs.
Well I doubt it would be one of the thousand snarky questions I have posted (no need to repeat any of them here). But I did ask an actual question on the post regarding what questions you would ask Pop. The one I submitted had to do with the offense. That is the only one I can think of.
Makes me curious.
Which of these things is not like the others? 15 NBA Championships, most wins in NBA history, current NBA champions, lost by 20 to the F'ing Spurs.
by olf on Feb 4, 2010 1:19 AM CST up reply actions
You will never find out… the boss oftentimes likes to do that to keep the mystery vibes going at PTR. Your indoctrination is now complete, you are hooked forever.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG

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