Poll: Is Tim Duncan in the NBA all-time top 5? . . .top 10?
by olf on Dec 28, 2010 3:24 PM CST
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PrintHey Spur lovers! I got a question for you to ponder during the slow parts of tonight's LAL @ SAS match up. And given the way both teams have been playing I am expecting plenty of garbage time tonight. (I personally will consider it a moral victory if the Lakers are within 10 at any point during the 2nd half.)
So here's the question.
During one of the recent TNT halftime/post-games Charles, Kenny & Ernie were discussing whether Kobe is in the top 5 players to play in the NBA all-time. You obviously don't need to comment on Kobe unless you want to. (I can't imagine many Spurs fans ranking him too high.) But it got me to thinking. Is Tim Duncan in the top 5 NBA players of all-time? If not, is he in the top 10?
Just to prime the discussion, here are the players they ranked ahead of him in no particular order:
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
PS. I am just curious what someone who loves the Spurs would think. If this is too trollish or whatever, feel free to delete it. No big deal.
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Top 5 is a tough nut to crack, for either guy. Both are definitely Top 10, but with the talent that the league has seen all throughout history, it would take some more time for me to make a call on that. I think Kobe is definitely one of the Top 3 at his position, and I think Timmy is definitely in the Top 1 of his; but an overall list is too subjective.
Good post though, intriguing discussion.
"If I was the kind of guy who posted a signature line, this would be it from now on." -SiMA
I think Kobe is definitely one of the Top 3 at his position
If by “his position” you mean Top 3 guard (and not just Top 3 shooting guards) then I would agree.
Much as I hate Jordan, he is the Top guard all-time and then I think Magic and Kobe are tied at the 2nd greatest guard all-time. Nobody else is in in the picture (my number 4 would be Oscar Robertson). And I guess that would make Magic the top all-time point guard.
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
The post neither “trollish” or “deletion” worthy; it’s a worthwhile question to ponder
Like SIMA, I think both Kobe and Timmy are in the top ten overall. All that remains is penciling the “other three” in that list. Who are they? Karl Malone, Hakeem Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Pete Maravich and Oscar Robertson are just some of the names that rolled around in my head.
↓↘→ ↓↘→ ↓↘→ + P
Kobe & Tim likely both belong in the top five of the twenty-first century. But all-time, Kobe is not in my top five Lakers, which would likely be West, Baylor, Kareem, Magic & either Chamberlin or Mikan. Besides all the players already named, non-Lakers to consider would include Dr. J, Elvin Hayes, Bob Cousy, etc. Tim is one of the best ever, but I’d find it difficult to put a rank on him that would put him in the top five.
top ten of 21st century…yeah one and two are in the top ten :P
jordan, jabbar,chamberlain, magic, bird, olajuwon, russell are my top 7 in no particular order. the last 3 spots of the top 10 would be between TD, kobe,big o, moses malone, shaq, west so thats a really good top 13 even if TD and kobe didn’t make the top 10 they are definitely in the conversation. i might be missing someone but i think thats the top 13.
I don’t see kobe or TD lower then that and bare in mind both could move up with another title or 2 and they both have teams that are at least competing for a title so this is completely possible
Agreed on those 13. Not sure which three to leave out of the top 10. Maybe Moses, West and one of the new guys (i.e. Shaq/Hakeem/Kobe/Duncan) would be left out.
Best of the rest? Maybe Pettit, Dr. J, Elgin, Mailman, Sir Charles, Hondo, Zeke….
…I think the Admiral has to be coming in pretty soon at this point. What about KG? Stockton, Cousy, Kidd, Drexler, Ewing……..All right, sorry for rambling. I will shut my virtual mouth for a moment.
both could move up with another title
If Boston wins this year does Shaq move up?
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
maybe slightly and it would some what depend on his role…TD and kobe are still playing a much bigger role for their teams…if not in stats at least in identity…where as shaq gets points for being willing to come off the bench but he would have to play out of his mind to be a top 6-7 contributor on that team with his role and mins.
I think both are top 10 all time, and both are probably top 5 all time. I’d say, for me, (in no particular order) the list goes something like: Jordan/Magic, Bird, Duncan/Kobe.
Bird probably isnt a popular choice, but in his prime he could do everything, and he could do it with either hand. He was born to play basketball. He could play point forward. He could defend 4 positions at least adequately. Magic was the same.
I’d personally rank Duncan higher than Kobe, and while I’ll take some flack for it, I think he’s overall done more with less around him. Kobe had Shaq as a partner, and I think the only time Tim had anyone that dominant as a sidekick was for the first title. He never had a team as stacked as the Kobe/Payton/Malone/Shaq teams. And if he had, we would have won more. I think this season, Tim has shown that he’s able to fit into any role, whether that be Superstar or role-player. Kobe has never shown that flexibility- and while its admirable that he’s too competitive to let that happen, its ultimately detrimental to the team. Early this season he deferred quite a bit to Pau, but recently I’ve seen him forcing tough shots again. It was the same in the playoffs last year- I remember at least twice Kobe airballed towards the end of games and got bailed out by either Artest or Odom who barely beat the buzzer.
But, hey, I’m a homer. Good discussion, Olf. Glad to see you back around.
Bonner with the nice box out!
what?
no love for the big men…in the top five how could you not include at least jabbar (6mvps 5 titles) or russell (11titles best def big man ever) no way kobe or TD beats them out of top 5
i like you argument for why maybe TD is better then kobe but still
I count Bird as a big guy- he was 6’10 or so. He mostly played SF but he was never afraid to post up. And he grabbed a lot of rebounds.
Honestly, its impossible to make a “Top 5 All positions All time” list. Divide it up by position, and thats (kind of) easier.
Top 5 Centers I’d have Russell, Jabbar, Hakeem/Robinson, Shaq
Top 5 PF’s I’d have Duncan, Mchale, Barkley, Garnett…not sure who after that. But Kevin Love is getting close, I think. It’s also tough for me to leave Robert Horry off this list, because even though his scoring and rebounding never really stood out, I dont think theres ever been a bigger winner than him. (He played for Bama, AND the Spurs, so I’m probably biased there too.)
I think with SG/SF it’s too tough to really tell them apart. Wings are Wings most of the time now- 10 or 15 years ago you’d see a lot of SF’s posting up, but not so much anymore. Even though he wasnt “the best” my favorite was always The Rifleman, Chuck Person. Dont know why, but I always loved to watch him play. Obviously, at the top of the list are MJ/Kobe. If we were just looking at per minute production, Manu would be up there too but he’s never done it over as many minutes as either of them did. He is brilliant, though.
PG’s are tough too. I’m not going to try to list them, but I’d say at least from the modern era you’ve got Kidd (who used to be one of the best defensive points in basketball), Nash (who is a below average defender but not as far below as his rep), and Rondo will be there. Paul and Williams are probably up there too, and Tony aint far behind.
And don’t read that as a knock on Tony. I just view him as a very, very efficient combo guard so I have problems listing him high when JUST talking about PG’s. If you want to talk about who does the most for their team…I think Tony tops that list for us.
Bonner with the nice box out!
by SpursfanSteve on Dec 28, 2010 10:34 PM CST up reply actions
kevin love!!! :P
position rankings could be fun and include more players but there are a lot more dominate and awesome centers then pf and sg then sf
just curious how old are you you seem to have way too many current players in these spots
yeah I’m only 23.
Bonner with the nice box out!
by SpursfanSteve on Dec 29, 2010 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
I mean, good post and all, but “Rondo will be there”? Top 5 all time? Isn’t that premature? What about Thomas?
I smell death... everywhere.
Rondo does everything a point guard can do as well as anyone else ever has- except shoot jumpers. If he ever gets Tony’s range and can start hitting long twos…there won’t be a way to stop him. He’s quick, he’s physical, he’s got length, and he’s not afraid to drive it to the basket. He’s got vision and he’s willing to pass. He’s excellent on defense.
And Thomas is up there. Wasn’t sure where to put him.
Bonner with the nice box out!
by SpursfanSteve on Dec 30, 2010 1:33 AM CST up reply actions
I see your point about rondo but its way too early to call him anywhere close right now. one title where he was the 4th best guy and still has at least half his career to go its hard. best guard in the league for a few years wouldn’t be enough to say top 10 and he isn’t even there yet. Could he be top 10 top5 ever…sure its possible if he wins 3-4 more titles as the leader/best player on the team and puts up solid/dominant numbers for the next 8-10 year.
I think its a lot more likely lebron/wade/durante could do this but that’s also why you start having these conversations towards the end of someone’s career once we can see most of what they have done to justify it
also agree thomas is up there and is often forgoten and under rated (as a player)
I’d say they will both probably be Top 10 worthy, but not Top 5. That’s a stratosphere that will be hard to reach. IMO the Top 5 (in no particular order) are Jordan, Bird, Magic, Wilt and Russell. But Top 10 is nothing to sneeze at.
Great discussion idea, olf.
With all due respect, gentlemen, we're not as crazy as she is.
OK, since it is you I will forgive you for leaving Kareem out of the top 5. And don’t spit out your eggnog (or champagne) but in my opinion and I think Barkley’s opinion too, Kobe has moved at least even with Bird.
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
I was vacillating between Russell and Kareem for the 5th spot. And I don’t agree that Kobe has passed Bird. He might, just not yet. But ultimately, they are all in the Top 10, so it’s not like anyone’s really being shortchanged.
With all due respect, gentlemen, we're not as crazy as she is.
Alright, I admit that Top 5 is kinda a trick question because there are really 6 players who all deserve to be in the Top 5 (Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Kareem).
To me (an admitted Lakers fan – even after last night), Bird is the weakest of the six. AND I realize it is hard for a Spurs fan to admit but the ol’ Kobester is very close to pulling even with that piece of Celtic. him.
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
Actually, last night, to me, illustrated the biggest problem with putting Kobe any higher that the amorphous “top 10”. He’s too damn stubborn to realize when his teammates are the better option. Amazing player, but he can make dumb decisions that take his team out of games.
Free Tiago Splitter!
I tried not to make this about Kobe because I realize there are some Spurs fans around here. But to respond to your point.
It doesn’t really work that way. Like I said, to me the guys in the top 5 are pretty clear – Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Kareem (yes, I know that is 6 people). There are a lot of good players left after that.
But in terms of ability and accomplishment it is difficult to find a player other than those six that surpasses Bryant even with his dumb decisions and stubbornness, etc. (I do recognize that is a tough case to make on a Spurs blog which is why I made the post about Duncan.)
So to me rather than just list a player’s shortcomings (Kobe obviously has plenty), one would need to specify a player who should be listed before them.
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
I agree with your top 6 and this was the same people they mentioned on tnt…the next 6-7 players i think are more or less interchangeable. i also think the magic is alittle over rated (although still top 5-6 but his def was really bad and fast pg torched him by the late 80s) and bird are the weak links in the “top 6”. the next 7 i would have as TD, kobe,big o, moses malone, shaq, west, olajuwon.
Each of these are missing something or just were not as dominate (no shame there the top 6 is tough to crack) but in alot of ways are really close to each other. If I had to rank them I would say Kobe, TD, west, Olajuwon, Shaq, Malone, big o, but again we are splitting hairs here and you can certainly shuffle this group.
I’m not a kobe fan and have disliked his style and stubbornness quit a bit but he is a great player and winner. I would rather have TD if I had to pick and an augment can be made that timmy is better but personally think kobe is just the slightest bit better…so far (again they are both still playing another title one way or the other could make this a little more clear.)
You lost me at Barkley’s opinion.
(",)
by day_late_friend on Dec 29, 2010 2:50 AM CST up reply actions
I went for top ten – try to put his impact into wins, and he’s not a Wilt or a Jordan or Russell, but he probably makes it into top ten.
Problem is the current crop of players who won’t retire for another decade has potential to break that top five and ten apart, we’re gonna have to wait and watch.
I only see LeBron and maybe Kevin Durant and maybe, maybe Wade. Can’t think of any more current players who look to have a shot at Top 5 really?
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
I think Wade is a better player overall then Lebron. Lebron is more physically gifted, but I think Wade is just more complete. I’m sure thats not a popular opinion though.
Bonner with the nice box out!
by SpursfanSteve on Dec 30, 2010 1:39 AM CST up reply actions
See i think its the other way around. I always thought of lebron as a more complete player (passing rebounding scoring handling) and wade as a better scorer (clutchness scoring and competitiveness)
Its kinda like KG is a more complete player (def scoring passing rebound)s but pierce is a better scorer clutch player.
This is also why I though it would work out in Miami…at least eventually once they figured out how to play together.
Wade came into the league a better defender. They are probably about even now. Wade can guard anyone 1-3, and Lebron can guard probably anything but the fastest PG and the biggest/most skilled 4/5’s. Athletic freak.
Bonner with the nice box out!
by SpursfanSteve on Dec 30, 2010 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
Tonights performance might have nudged Kobe down a spot or two. Just sayin.
[ "Duncan, the Spurs' 34-year-old captain, was aghast when Splitter told him he used to watch him as a kid."]
"I didn't enjoy that at all," Duncan said
Good poll, olf. It’s a tough one… I haven’t watched players who played before the 80s, but from reading about them, it looked like Russell and Chamberlain were truly dominant. Kareem likewise was a monster. There’s also Magic and Bird, whom I hold in very high regard not just for their talent but for boosting the league to new heights in their time. Jordan, for me the greatest, lifted the league even higher.
Duncan’s top 10, for now. I’m willing to sneak him into the top 5 if he wins another ring. We have to remember that Russell also played with six Hall of Famers and great offensive players like Cousy, KC Jones, Hondo Havlicek and one of the best 6th men ever in Tommy Heinsohn.
"A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It’s what happens while you wait for moments that will never come." - Lester Freamon, The Wire
by silverandblack_davis on Dec 29, 2010 7:54 AM CST reply actions
Well it was a different time…less teams more concentration of talent…the famous tip off of game one between the lakers and celtics (85 i think) had 9 hof on the floor. part of what makes them hof is also that they won so much.
The top 6 is really hard to break into because they really have it all, impact on the league, dominate player, great stats, awards, longevity and a lot of titles. Most of the present players who you might consider are missing or are weak in a few of these.
The problem where Duncan gets hurt is the lack of back to back championships. They should have beaten Dallas in 06. That probably would have been another ring. 04 was another year with the ridiculous.
bird and wilt never won back to back, Kareem only at the end well past his prime. of the top 10 possible players not in the top 6 big o, malone and the logo only have one title never mind back to back. you could argue olajuwon’s back to backs are less impressive then duncans 4 titles in the light of jordan being gout of the league (its a matte of opinion but you could make the argument).
so it cant be the only think holding tim back if you don’t like him in the top 10
In the subjectivity of it all, I think he gets caught in that. I didn’t say he wasn’t the only one to miss out on the back to back Championships. Honestly, Duncan’s teams did more with less than Hakeem’s teams. But Hakeem on an individual level was definitely bad ass during that time. I think Duncan is in the top 10, just not in the top 5(or fake 6 from the list above).
I think if Duncan had at least 1 more (and maybe one coming this year), he could have the argument for top 5. I think it would be especially strong if he already had 6 and was going for a 7th.
I say this as being a Spurs fan because of Duncan (my favorite player).
These types of questions are far too subjective to ever arrive at a universally agreeable answer. There are just too many factors to consider (era played in, teammates talent, etc.) to ever form a difinitive list. But I will say this:
- Only player in NBA history to earn All-NBA Team and All-Defensive Team honors in each of his 13 seasons.
- Only player in NBA history to have been an All-Defensive Team selection for more than 10 consecutive seasons.
- One of 10 players in NBA history to win multiple MVP Awards.
- One of just four players to be named Finals MVP three-or-more times.
I think that it would be difficult to argue against Duncan being anywhere from 1-10. However, compelling arguments can be made for other players listed in this thread occupying the same 1-10 spots, and I think that is as good as it’s ever going to get.
"It's not that the Irish are cynical. It's rather that they have a wonderful lack of respect for everything and everybody."
-- Brendan Behan --
by Zeno of Citium on Dec 29, 2010 9:30 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
People of PtR, Zeno of Citrium speaks again. Heed his words.
Zeno, you don’t comment often, but nearly every time you do, it’s something terrific like this that you bring to the table.
Here, have a JTU, and feel free to chime in more often.
Enjoying the trip to # 172 as much as humanly possible
Hey before I forget, what does the # 172 in “Enjoying the trip to # 172 as much as humanly possible” signify.
Hey if repeating as champions were that easy even the Spurs could do it.
This may have been mentioned in an earlier post but I’m feeling too lazy to read:
I actually think the whole “greatest player(s) of all time” dealie is an apples/oranges ordeal. There is no way to compare today’s players to those of even the past decade. The game is always evolving, therefore, causing players to evolve. Better players lead to better players…
However, Manu is the greatest basketball player to ever live… (Euroleague/Olympic/NBA/Life Champ. – can’t argue with that).
can't forget Matty, if you did you'd feel gyped
like your sandwich ain't a sandwich without Miracle Whip
It is very very subjective to compare players from different epochs. I believe, in general the NBA talent increases, and it means that Kobe and Tim are playing against stronger opposition than Russel or Bird. But they have better teammates around them as well, better coaching staff, better medicine and better equipment. Anyway, Tim is the best Spur ever, and the best power forward ever (though he is really 4/5 combo). It is not so clear that Kobe is the best ever at his team and he is probably not the best ever at his position. Shaq at his best season was more dominant than either Tim or Kobe, but he didn’t have so many good seasons as any of them. In his best game, Kobe was probably more dominant than Tim in his best game, but Tim has been always very consistent and ultimate team player, while Kobe has been sometimes too selfish to the point of hurting his team. Tim is likely #1 ever if you add character to purely basketball achievements. Duncan is the best thing that ever happened to the NBA in terms of integrity, Kobe contributed more to the league’s bottom line. You can go on and on, and never get one right answer. Of course, Tim is very very high on my personal list of favorite players. Still, Manu is #1 of that list.
"Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."
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