Look To The Stars For Answers. And Problems.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Jan 25, 2010 2:00 PM CST
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PrintWhy isn't this working? Why are we a middling Western Conference team instead of an NBA powerhouse? I don't think it is RJ. I don't think it is McDyess. We brought them in to be our 4th and 5th starters to complement our Big 3. Maybe they haven't provided as much as we like, but we aren't as good as last year. Or the year before. Or the year before. That's got to be on the Big 3. Not on RJ and Antonio. I think we aren't as good because our Big 3 aren't as good. We have 3 supposed all-star caliber guys who aren't playing like all-stars, who aren't getting it done on the defensive end, and who aren't making plays at the end of games.
RJ and McDyess can't look like successful free agent signings when the Big 3 are playing poorly. But the blame has to go to the Big 3. Not on the new guys.
What are the differences between last year and this year? RJ instead of FinDog. McDyess and Blair instead of Fab and KT? I have to see those as upgrades. George Hill is undoubtedly better than last year and certainly more effective than The JV. RJ and Antonio may not be playing great, but you can't tell me they are that bad. Jeff McDonald says RJ is "underachieving", but is he really? Underachieving on what expectations? If you want underachieving, you need to look at Manu, Tony, and Tim. They are the all-stars of the team. They are the corporate knowledge. They are the leaders.
I'd like to visit this quote from Pop (via 48MoH) talking about his defense, "It looks like the effort and all that sort of thing is great, but way too many mistakes…not enough focus…not enough execution. We’re scoring enough points to win games. We’re scoring more points than we’ve ever scored in our lives, but our defense is really sub-par and it’s killing us."
Too many mistakes. Not enough focus. Not enough execution. Those are mistakes of leadership. Throw Pop in there with Tim, Tony, and Manu. Leadership starts at the top, but let's just talk about the guys on the court because they are Pop by extension. Tony, Tim, and Manu aren't working their collective asses off. They aren't dominating. They aren't locking guys down defensively. They aren't staying focused. I mean it as a group. Individually, they all bring some of these things, but they all don't bring all of them. Tim is playing to stay healthy. Tony is playing to get people involved. Manu is playing to get his confidence back. Whatever. They need to be playing their asses off. They need to be playing as if each possession matters on every play. It is that attention to detail and drive for perfection that drives the people around you. Our big three aren't fighting for everything. They are making too many mistakes. They aren't focused enough. They aren't executing enough.
If we are going to make a run this year, it will be on the backs of the big three. RJ and Dyess are just here to make that ride smoother. They aren't here to be the guys that carry us. Yes, I wish those two guys were playing better, but that would only help to cover up the fact that our Big 3 aren't getting it done. Can they get it done? Ah, that is the question.
Random Bits From the Rockets Game
I went to the Rockets game on Friday with Mrs ATS. We had a good time despite the loss. But, seriously, is Dos XX the best beer a man get for $7.75? Ughh!!!
I got to see/hear the Yucky Stew kid and his step-sister sing the national anthem. That was kind of cool. There were quite a few Rockets fans in the arena and when "the Rockets red glare" was sung they started yelling. That's WAY uncool. That is embarrassing. They need to check that shit at the city limits next time.
Tim hitting his 20,000th point was more special than I thought. I had the slight tug of a tear in my eye. The crowd was really into it and Tim actually acknowledged the crowd.
If you go down the stairs to the charter level, you have three options. One, go back upstairs. Two, turn to the left and show your ticket to the usher and be allowed to enter the nice bar areas where the people with good tickets get good beer. Three, turn to the right and walk down a hallway. We went with option 3. As it turns out, this is where the Spurs offices are. Down this hallway is this really funky pimpy section where it is metallic orange and hollowed out like you are walking through a basketball or something. Very strange. You should check it out.
Part of the reason we had a great time is because we sat next to some fun fans. We had an older couple, mid-60's or so, to our right and in front of them were a couple of Rockets fans. The Rockets guys were pretty loud, but they kept it fun. Would discuss the calls rationally. And after the game, they thanked all of us. That was cool.
Random Bits From Saturday With LatinD
We picked him up at the airport with a minimal amount of drama and delay. Just enough delay, that I know he was starting to think "What the hell am I going to do? I don't know anybody in this town. I don't know where I am staying. I don't even have a phone."
We dropped off his bags at his place, managed to get him a phone, and went to dinner. I'll be very curious to get LD's impression of the dinner. We went to a place called "The Cove" which I heard about from Mike Monroe of the Express News/MySA.com. It could best be described as Bar/Restaurant/Car Wash/Coin Laundry/Live Music Venue rolled into one. The drunk, homeless guy sleeping under the table in the coin laundry with his 32 oz beer was a sight. The only tables are outside. They had some teenage bands playing and the place was busy and crowded with teenagers at 5:30. But, it's not your standard bar food restaurant. I had a lamb burger with sweet potato fries and Mrs ATS had the fish and shrimp taco combo plate. LD had a "real burger". I'd highly recommend The Cove.
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Good stuff ATS...
They need to be playing their asses off (yeah, what you said!)
Honestly. You kids today, with your hippity-hop music and your Twiddle. - Lauri
Right on ATS – sounds like good times.
As far as the Big 3 go, yeah I am with you about two of them and you knew this was coming but Timmy is having a pretty damn good year so far. So what is the problem? Is it Age? Timmy is having a great year but not on the defensive end. TP and Manu, well, I am not going to reiterate the points that you made but one, the energy/drive/hunger is just not there.
"Mr. Gilmore deserves to be in the Basketball Hall of Fame damnit. Highest field goal percentage EVER"
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html
I don’t know that Timmy should be part of the criticism. He definitely gets on his teammates about mistakes, even the other parts of the big 3. And he’s having a career year – the other 2 have had quite a few lapses and lazy plays(yes, even Manu, though he’s been better lately). There’s no reason a team with this much talent should be struggling so mightily.
The Spurs - now playing like sh*t again!
Timmy has had more than a handful of plays he takes off on defense, especially coming out to shooters. Call it what you want, but that’s not good defense at any level. I saw a lot of that last season and attributed it to being injured, but what’s the excuse this year? Actually the whole team can be put in this category. We don’t chase shooters off the 3-point line and we give too many open shots where the players don’t even make an attempt at closing out.
I know what you are talking about. But about the excuse, I don’t know if there needs to be one. Timmy on those plays are moving just about how fast he can move without putting too much strain on those knees. So he is decidedly guarded in how he closes out etc and not putting pressure defensively. Also, as far as shooters fearing blocks, that hasn’t been the case either.
So our defensive paradigm of funneling shooters etc to waiting shot inhibitors probably needs a revisit coz Timmy is not able to do that at a high lvl anymore to deter any of the elite teams.
I don’t think that RJ has been that much of an upgrade from Finley, I fact i think he has been a downgrade. He is not as good of a shooter, he’s not aggressive, lately he has been killed on defense, and when he posted up he bails the defense out shooting an ugly fade away jumper. But we can’t blame all on RJ, because thats not his game.
At the beginning of the season I thought the Spurs system was going to change. I though that we were going to be a more Run’nGun team because of the personnel we had. We have a lot of athletes on this team, but we are running the same old system with a personnel that does not fit. This team plays at their best when they pick up the pace. When we become a halfcourt team we suck, because only Duncan is a halfcourt player, that’s when the offensive droughts and TOs come.
The System (or the players )has to change
START MANU!!!
Its time to start Manu. GHill’s emergence tells me that he should take Manu’s spot on the 2nd team. Manu is the Spurs best perimeter defender, their best facilitator, can go to the hoop and draw the foul or dish to the open man, and he can consistently hit the 3. With TP hobbled, let Manu run the offense.
Start Manu, TP, RJ, Tim, and Blair. A GHill, Mason, Bogans, McDyess, and Bonner/Mahinmi second team can match up with any second team in the league.
Manu is the energy that the starters need. He will help their defense and allow TP and RJ to be the scorers they can be. RJ needs someone who can get him the ball in the right spot so he can attack the rim. He didn’t get that $14 million dollar contract standing around and launching 3’s; he got it by going to the hoop and finishing aggressively.
Go Spurs!
Manu is not a starter. It is not his role and he is not that type of player. He best serves the team by coming off the bench, he knows that and Pop does too. Sorry but that probably is not changing.
"Mr. Gilmore deserves to be in the Basketball Hall of Fame damnit. Highest field goal percentage EVER"
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html
by Joe deLarios on Jan 25, 2010 3:15 PM CST up reply actions
I disagree. That may have been true in the last 5-7 seasons, but not anymore. Manu is a better defender than Bogans (steals, charges, double-teaming, ENERGY), a better clutch 3-pt shooter than Bogans or Hill, as good of a passer as TP (if not the best on the team), 6’6" instead of the 6’2" Hill, he can create his own shot, get to the line, and pass effectively out of the doubleteam. and he is a proven Winner (sorry RJ, Bogans, Mason, etc.) Manu is the energy missing from both ends of the court with the starters.
GHill can be 6th man of the year. He’s that good. But this season’s results are showing that last season’s strategies are not working. Hill can come in at 6 minutes and provide a huge spark off the bench on both ends of the court like Manu has done.
Manu is the only defensive and offensive solution for the starters. Who are you going to double-team with TP, Manu, RJ, and Tim all on the floor?
by Bubba Zanetti on Jan 25, 2010 4:54 PM CST up reply actions
The competition is incredible this year for 6th man. I don’t even think G. Hill could be in the conversation. There is just no way Hill could compete with Harrington, Landry of Crawford just to name a few.
Sorry; I meant that GHill POTENTIALLY could be a 6thMOY, if he is given the role that Manu has played on the 2nd team for the last several seasons. His game is just starting to develop now that they’re not trying to make him the new TP anymore. I see GHill being more of a Ben Gordon type, except a much better defender.
by Bubba Zanetti on Jan 25, 2010 5:34 PM CST up reply actions
Good points about the double-team look with TP, Manu, RJ and Tim on the floor, but who is the 2?
Manu is still best served on a good team as a bench player but perhaps you are right, with the current situation, it couldn’t hurt – unless does in the form of an injury to Manu
"Mr. Gilmore deserves to be in the Basketball Hall of Fame damnit. Highest field goal percentage EVER"
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html
by Joe deLarios on Jan 26, 2010 1:41 PM CST up reply actions
SPURS defensive woes
What I’ve seen so far this year is a lack of the teamwork defense that SA had in 2007 season. Defenders would jump out to press perimeter shooters and when they put it on the floor they would channel them to defensive help. When that happened other players would sag to the middle to prevent passes to cutting players. Then when the ball was passed back outside the player who was assigned to guard the ballhandler would rush full speed to the perimeter to start it all over again. The sagging players were always in position for a rebound and TD was in position for shot blocking along with the number two front line player. Haven’t seen that type of defensive coordination this season at all. Most NBA teams have at least two good 3 point shooters. We haven’t been able to move quickly enough to cover them and it has been killing us. Maybe we should consider using some of the younger big players like Mahinmi and Haislip to get a little more speed into our defense. Who knows. Right now it is very discouraging. I’l still keep hoping for a turnaround ie: Rodeo Week, but the problems could be deeper than that.
the C word
As simplistic as it sounds I’m comming to believe it could be as simple as chemistry. And reasons abound for that to happen.
Probably I used to think the Spurs were too professional to fall in that one, but again I never thought seeing Manu going public with spurs FO matters.
….just saying
by spursfan_needs_counseling on Jan 25, 2010 6:50 PM CST reply actions
the other C word
I think its carelessness on offense and defense. We build a big lead against teams and then it seems as if we forget what got us that big lead.
I’ve been saying for a while we need a vocal leader on this team….someone who will call out players when their playing like sh*t.
how many layups did tony have in the first 6 minutes of the game last night vs the rest of the game? I completely agree with you. I just don’t understand why we give up on what was working so well.
Maybe the Bulls made adjustments to cut Tony off and we were unable to take advantage of the other opportunities that resulted those defensive changes.
If only I had time to break down film, I’d be able to back this theory up with some actual proof.
::sigh::
Consider the gun jumped
5 in 10
I bet a healthy Tony would be better than Chicago’s defense.
Waitaminute. Did I just defend Parker? Did I just make an excuse for him?
::shivers::
I don’t know what to do about this. I feel weird all over.
Consider the gun jumped
5 in 10
Poor coaching
This is the worse coaching job done by Pops and his assistants. Don’t blame the Big Three or the free agents only, blame the leadership from the top. I always thought Pops to be one of the top three coaches in the league, but not this year. Someone needs to get angry and push these players.
Maybe the players have tuned Pop out. It seems to happen 99% of the time. At some point players just stop listening to a coach. Of course, there are exceptions like Sloan and Pop ( up until now maybe )
...Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is forty five.
Mr. WVATS I would just like to personally thank you for calming my fears and worries. Here I was, ready to slam the panic button and call this season a wash (in the sense that we wouldn’t win a chip, which is the only goal worth achieving this season). But then you came in with your common sense and just brought it back to our best players not playing like our best players. This makes a ton of sense.
Tim has played at a consistent high level but is not dominating. Tony and Manu are showing flashes with no consistency. RJ and SAM could do more but really we shouldn’t be relying on them. It’s up to the big 3.
Now, is it weird that I’m not worried about this? Well, no. What I WAS worried about was that there was some kind of lack of chemistry/talent/winning ability that we were lacking. You reassured me that YES we are good enough. We just gotta put the effort out there. And effort is so much easier to do than talent. Just TRY you sloths! You gotta WANT IT! This is so frustrating.
"We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams." -Willy Wonka
Sorry, Wayne, it IS RJ. He sucks, he keeps on sucking, and he’s going to be the reason Manu won’t be resigned.
Bone breaking? -340
Dunkin' Cheerleaders
I have a question for the people with high basketball IQs here. If we had such an easier schedule earlier in the season and we knew we need to save our stars for the playoffs why didnt the team decide to go all out in the first half of the season? Like a football team for example? What if Pop told the big 3, “go all out during the first half” instead of being 25 and 18 we might be 33-10. Then we can relax for the last few months of the season and play 0.500 ball. Would not that be a better strategy? You get the rest when you needed the most, right before the playoffs, and any injuries in the early part of the season have time to heal?
It is just confusing how Pop’s approach differs from that of a football team. A football team tries to wrap up everything as soon as possible in the season. Pop keeps a steady diet of rest throughout.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
Sometimes Charles Barkley comes up with some simple yet profound gems. Many years ago he said something that still sticks with me: “Basketball is a young man’s game.” Experience counts for a lot, but there comes a point when you need to simply give up on the Van Exels, JVs, and Horrys when it is clear that they are on their last legs. Or else seriously curtail the minutes of certain key veterans and give your promising young guys some PT.
My favorite football team is the Titans. The first part of this past season they were grossly underachieving, and as the losses kept mounting it became clear to almost everyone except for coach Jeff Fisher that they needed to sit QB Kerry Collins in favor of Vince Young. Finally, after the Titans record became 0-6, pressure from the owner forced the change. The positive results were immediate, and the Titans somehow almost made the playoffs.
The parallels are obvious. Like the Titans, the Spurs are underachieving big time. I believe that Fisher is an excellent coach, but he was certainly stubborn in not going with Young when it was clear that a change was in order. Pop is an excellent coach, but I believe that he’s been very stubborn over the years in sticking with certain veterans when it is clear that a change is in order. Some of his younger talent (i.e. Mahinmi, Hairston) should be getting serious minutes (and these coming few home games would be a great time to do so) . If Peter Holt is too hands off to have the kind of influence that Bud Adams did in the Titans situation, is there anyone who Pop will listen to?
You definitely can’t blame Collins for all those dropped passes and blown assignments in the secondary, but VY definitely helped the team by giving them another threat. Sorry, I too like the Titans and they disappointed me this year, big time.
No, you can’t put too much blame on Collins, but the team needed new motivation through the areas of athleticism and leadership, and Young was the clear choice. Interestingly enough, the year before (and here’s where the analogy w/the Spurs breaks down) the dynamics were such that Young needed to sit for awhile and Collins was the right man to step in and get the job done.
I agree with you, unfortunately hindsight is always 20/20. It’s too bad CJ was hurt last year during the playoffs, otherwise they had a good chance to get to the Super Bowl.
Collins played the much tougher schedule too. I’m not sure what VY would have done in those games but that entire situation seemed controlled to me. If they start VY and he starts the tough schedule bad, the franchise looks bad and they don’t have an ace up their sleeve. If they stick with Collins, who didn’t look horrific for 90% of games, and then hand it over to VY when the schedule gets easier, they are setting up VY and the franchise to look good to the fans.
They should have started VY from the first game though.
Tim is playing great—arguably a career season. TP is mediocre. Manu is too spotty. RJ does nothing other than score and he is underperforming significantly in that regard. McDyess is doing about what we should have expected—he’s old. Kept thinking it was a matter of us gelling—that there are a lot of new guys, that we always start slow. Started to get a little excited around the time we beat LA and OKC back to back and then this terrible run. These stellar first quarters followed by CHOKE. Yes, we need another big guy. A young big guy. But is this the problem? Maybe…somewhat. But we are underperfoming across the board. We arguably have the most talented bench in the league and yet… I see a lot of Pop blame on this board. But Pop is a great coach with a great eye for talent and Firing Pop is the last thing this team needs. What we need is a fire lit under our A##! What we need is that sense of urgency, a little bit of swagger, and the return of some clutch mojo
I think Tim is playing great offensively, though he didn’t seem right for the Bulls game, but I don’t think he has been that great on the defensive end. Of course, it is really difficult to judge something like that.
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Jan 27, 2010 8:30 AM CST up reply actions
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