Is Age a Problem for the Spurs?
Age is a sensitive subject for Spurs fans. For the past several years, ESPN analysts have posed the question, "Are the Spurs too old to win a championship?" They then explain that the Spurs’ average age is thirty-something while the youngest team in the NBA is around 25. And we see these stats, listen to their logic, and doubt enters our psyche. We begin to think that maybe we are too old. Maybe they are right. After all, if enough analysts for ESPN are saying the same thing, they must be correct, right?
Well, I have several issues with the theories that are thrown around regarding the Spurs’ age. First, the calculation of the Spurs’ age is unscientific. As best I can tell, the average age is derived by simply taking the Spurs’ roster at that point in time and averaging everyone’s age. Is this a true representation of the age of a Spurs’ team? I think not. What if the Spurs have a 40 year old player that averages 2 minutes per game? Should his age carry the same weight as a 27 year old Tony Parker who averages 35 minutes per game? Would not the true average age be one that took into consideration the minutes each player spent on the floor?
In order to derive a more telling average age, I gathered raw data dating back to the ’99 season from Basketball Reference. I derived the weighted average age by minutes played for each Spurs team, the championship teams, and the teams with the worst regular season record. The weighted average basically averages the team’s age based on the minutes played for each player on the roster. So the team’s top minute getters’ ages carry more weight than those who did not play as often. In this way, we can get a more telling average age of the players that actually spent time on the floor.
Since the ’09-’10 season has not taken place, I guessed the minutes per game each Spur will average next season. I used these numbers to compute the weighted average age. Antonio McDyess is likely to see fewer minutes than I estimated if one of the Spurs' many bigs is successful, which would lower the weighted age. So this is a conservative estimate. Below is a table that displays my forecasted minutes for the upcoming season.
Analysts commonly use age in a negative light when discussing the Spurs. At some point they stopped talking about the ‘veterans’ and began talking about the ‘old’ players. But are older players really a bad thing? Do we not see veterans win championships every year? Look at the Boston Celtics championship team of two years ago. Pierce, Garnett, and Allen were in no way young.
So, let's take a look at the statistics and see if they validate or negate what we have been told about our aging Spurs.
In the table above we have each season dating back to 1999 followed by the weighted average age by minutes played for each Spurs team, the championship squad, and the team with the worst regular season record. (Please note, in several seasons there were ties for the worst regular season record. In these instances I chose one of the tying teams at random for my data.) Reviewing the data you may notice that while the Spurs are consistently on the older end, they are not as old as you may have thought relative to the teams that won the championship each year. Over the past 11 seasons, the Spurs weighted average age is 29.5, while the NBA champions' weighted average age is 28.7. So all this fuss has been about eight-tenths of a year? As you may have guessed, the weighted average age of the worst team in the league is significantly younger, at 25.2 years for the past 11 seasons. It's interesting that when ESPN analysts talk about the 'old' Spurs they always compare them to the league average or the youngest, (often times worst,) team in the league. The league average age is just that. If you want your team to be average, then do what everyone else is doing. If you want your team to be a contender each year, then follow the formula of loading your team with veterans that know the game and do not care about individual statistics. If ESPN analysts attempted to compare the Spurs' age to teams that win the championship each year, their argument would not be so convincing. Below is a visual representation of the data from above.
As you can tell from the graph, the Spurs have consistently fallen within the championship window. In 2008, the Spurs featured their oldest team of the past 11 seasons, but since then have made moves to get younger. If my forecasted minutes per game for the '09-'10 season are accurate, the Spurs will once again feature a team within the championship window. The championship window is represented by the red lines on the graph. I used the youngest and oldest championship teams since '99 to set its floor and ceiling. The Spurs set the ceiling in '07 proving that they can win it all with an older squad, and who is to say that they will not reset the ceiling in the years to come? Also of note, in 1999 the Spurs' roster had a weighted average age of 30.1. The talk of the 'too old to win Spurs' did not begin until well after that season. Why would this be the case? Because once a franchise wins a championship, everyone nitpicks that team until a flaw is agreed upon, right or wrong. Obviously, with age comes the risk of injury that all Spurs fans are very familiar with. However, that seems to be a risk that one must take in order to put a team in a position to win it all. The Celtics knew this risk when they teamed up Garnett and Allen with Pierce. It paid off in '08 and in '09 Garnett was injured and they lost. If Fisher and Would any Spurs fan be willing to substitute a younger player for Tim or Manu to make the team younger? Is there a younger player out there that would give us a better chance of winning than either of them? If your answer is 'no,' then we are on the same page. While Arzia showed the dramatic impact a young player can have on a championship team last year, he was still the fourth banana. Having a younger team may be fun and exciting, but as you can tell from the data, it means your chances of going all the way are slim to none. Since '99, the youngest team to win a championship had a weighted average age of 27.4. It is noteworthy that many of the championship teams depended on veterans that were surrounded by younger players. In this way, their average age is deceiving. For example, last season's championship Lakers team featured Bryant, Gasol, Odom and Fisher; their average age was 30.3. However, the team's weighted age was a low 27.4 because their next top four minute getters, consisting of Ariza, Bynum, Vujacic, and Farmar, had an average age of 22.5 which skewed the data southward. In this way, while 27.4 may seem young, that team greatly relied on a 30 year-old core to win the championship. So Spurs fans, let's feel good about gambling as we did in '99, '03, '05, and '07 with our 'old' guys. If we stay healthy, we have a great shot at winning; if not, then there's always next year, (as long as we do not get too young.)
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Comments
Wow. Great concept, brilliantly executed. I love the idea of average weighted age, and I think it’s a valid alteration.
WWTD?
by Lauri on Sep 30, 2009 3:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Very cool
Appreciate the research and analysis
by cutlassbob on Sep 30, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks. It took a while to force myself to derive all those stats but I think it was worth it in order to make my post more valid.
And thanks to BlaseE for giving me some feedback and suggestions.
"GINOBILI!" -- Sir Charles
by Fred Silva on Sep 30, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was an absolutely BRILLIAN analysis, Fred. It makes sense to use weighting, as it gives a clearer picture of what’s really occurring. OTSTANDING work!
My people call it "sarcasm." - Lauri
by CapHill on Oct 1, 2009 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good work, Fred. Although, it’s always difficult to know whether the national analysts are using “too old” as short hand for “higher risk of injury” or if they’re just oblivious to the important role veteran savvy plays on championship squads.
48MoH
http://www.48minutesofhell.com/
by Timothy Varner on Sep 30, 2009 3:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Part of the point I was attempting to make is that having older players is nearly a prerequisite to winning a championship. Do they pose an injury risk? Yes. But every championship team since ’99 has taken this risk and had it pay off. The anomaly would be the Pistons of 2004. They are the only team that was not extremely dependent on 30+ year old veterans. Although one may argue that this team consisted of young players that played as if they were veterans.
"GINOBILI!" -- Sir Charles
by Fred Silva on Sep 30, 2009 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although one may argue that this team consisted of young players that played as if they were veterans.
You can argue that, but then you’re also looking at one team who, in the only year since 1999 bucked not only the age trend, but a number of other trends as well; including the “team must have a dominant/superstar player” trend which has been in operation for far longer than you pulled your age numbers from.
I’d say with 2004, we’re looking at the exception that proves the rule.
From under the radar to hanging in the rafters - Big50
5 in 10
by jollyrogerwilco on Oct 1, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would add something here but I blocked 2004 out of my memory because of .4 seconds. That season was really a strange one.
"GINOBILI!" -- Sir Charles
by Fred Silva on Oct 1, 2009 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
point four wha?
From under the radar to hanging in the rafters - Big50
5 in 10
by jollyrogerwilco on Oct 2, 2009 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The shot Derek Fisher hit that shouldn’t have counted. Crap, now I remember 2004.
"GINOBILI!" -- Sir Charles
by Fred Silva on Oct 2, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I knew what you meant but was trying to pretend that I’d blocked the memory as well.
Using a technique to communicate a response FAIL.
I’ll try to do a better job of it next time.
From under the radar to hanging in the rafters - Big50
5 in 10
by jollyrogerwilco on Oct 2, 2009 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duncan and Gino have been called old since the end of the 2007 season and maybe even before that.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
by LasEspuelas on Sep 30, 2009 5:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And guys like JA adande get paid to write crap about kobe and lebron.
Brilliant work sir. Keep it up.
"Rock and Roll angels bring that HardRock Hallelujah"
by Chilai on Sep 30, 2009 5:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Loved this. Thanks and great work, Fred. I felt that for the past few seasons, while the veterans did help with their experience, it’s important to still not completely disregard having young players to develop. Sure, Toros development is great but having those young legs actually play in the L with the Spurs is the more valuable experience tool.
by silverandblack_davis on Sep 30, 2009 7:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Awesome analysis, very Nate Silver-ish. And I even understood what you were talking about.
If you haven't lived with a squirrel, you haven't lived. - Bob Ross
by Hipuks on Sep 30, 2009 8:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow. Just wow. Very interesting way to look at the average age. Get it patented, or I will. Don’t worry, I’ll call it the “FS Formula” (but I’ll tell everyone that FS is for the “f*cking Spurs”).
"Yes, it's important that I have good numbers, and I'm well-respected as a player. But I think it's more important that I'm respected as a man." - Some Tall Guy Who Wore #50
by theonlyromeo on Sep 30, 2009 8:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
poll
Wow do you really think that the rockets will return the favor? Ive been waiting for RTF since ive been married.
by david f on Sep 30, 2009 11:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
poll
Don’t you think raja is a better fit? By the way how do the spurs look in camp?
by david f on Sep 30, 2009 11:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Awesome read. Good job!
I want to say I was watching KSAT lastnight and my god has Michael Finley beefed up! Anyone else notice this or is it just been a long damn summer that I never noticed it. LOL
by mikesatx on Oct 1, 2009 8:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he put on the weight that Timmeh took off.
From under the radar to hanging in the rafters - Big50
5 in 10
by jollyrogerwilco on Oct 1, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you say “beef” its more like, fat, rather than muscle, right? If yes, then we’re screwed.
by silverandblack_davis on Oct 1, 2009 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Finley’s nothing if not fit. So it’s not fat.
But then again, you could use the above statement to argue that Finley’s nothing. How can the man win?
From under the radar to hanging in the rafters - Big50
5 in 10
by jollyrogerwilco on Oct 2, 2009 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hearing about veterans being cut reminds me K. Willis…
by BlaseE on Oct 2, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahhh, yes. He of the ’bow pads. Kev, we hardly knew ye.
From under the radar to hanging in the rafters - Big50
5 in 10
by jollyrogerwilco on Oct 2, 2009 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
^of K Willis…..
leaving out a word FAIL, and I don’t think it is fair to say I was typing fast because went and found a link and pasted it in…
by BlaseE on Oct 2, 2009 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m glad all of you enjoyed it. It makes using excel when I’m not at work slightly more tolerable.
"GINOBILI!" -- Sir Charles
by Fred Silva on Oct 1, 2009 10:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Fred's Poll
Great article! As an old man myself I respect the value experience which age brings. I think Pop leans more heavily on his older players than most coaches. But remember it was the addition of a youngster that put the Spurs over the top for their first championship. Intelligent youth coupled with athleticism that can be lethal. It is the correct combination of both experience coupled with young talent that wins championships. The Lakers might not have won their last title without their younger players. Silva’s article was great and it supports the theory that you must have an age balance leaning toward skill and experience. Again a great story. P.S. As an afterthought the final 15 roster is probably inacurrate, because Keith Bogans, 29, is now in the mix. That puts either Williams or Hairston on the number 16 hot seat. I don’t think Pop wants to lose either so I predict a two for one trade. Finley and Bonner for a good fit in the mix. Bet R.C. is working on it right now.
by jimjule on Oct 1, 2009 10:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I derived these stats before we picked up Bogans and forgot to add him. But he is 29 and the weighted average is 29.7, so his impact would not be noticeable. Basically, whatever minutes he would take from other players would pull the weighted average towards 29. Since 29 is only .7 away from 29.7, it would take a lot of minutes to drag the average more than a tenth. So the forecasted weighted average is still accurate, even though I am missing Bogans..
"GINOBILI!" -- Sir Charles
by Fred Silva on Oct 1, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad Bogans isn’t from western PA or the Appalachian region. Then we could call him “You-uns.”
WWTD?
by Lauri on Oct 1, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The impact might be noticeable if, for instance, he were to take the minutes of a 100 year old fossil.
"If an expert says it can't be done, get another expert"
- DBG
by LasEspuelas on Oct 1, 2009 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thankfully Jacque Vaughn does not play for us anymore.
"GINOBILI!" -- Sir Charles
by Fred Silva on Oct 1, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very nice
GOL
From under the radar to hanging in the rafters - Big50
5 in 10
by jollyrogerwilco on Oct 1, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think your model is a big improvement on the typical average age stat, as it really captures the age of your core of players, and confirms what most NBA fans have typically thought, that young teams simply don’t win in the NBA. I also find it interesting that your “championship window” roughly corresponds with what is thought of as the peak years for an individual NBA player, roughly ages 27-30, when a player has finally been around the league long enough to maximize his skills and knowledge of the game but before age saps his athleticism. It makes sense that teams built around players in this age group would be the most successful. Of course ultimately my big age concern with the Spurs has nothing to do with their collective age and everything to do with the individual age of Timmy and Manu. Adding the likes of Hill, Blair, and Jefferson to replace JV, Thomas, and Bowen definitely represents a nice injection of athleticism for the team that is nicely captured by your weighted average stat (and hopefully will be reflected in the dunk stat at the end of the year) but doesn’t do anything to reduce the injury risk of Duncan and Ginobili. When ESPN and other national analysts talk about the Spurs’s age, I think this is really what they have in mind, although as you point out, it’s no different than the Celtics relying on Garnett, the Cavs on Shaq, Lakers on Kobe, Magic on Carter, etc.
GO SPURS GO!
5 IN '10!
by WillyD on Oct 1, 2009 4:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I finally got around to reading this. (You know work’s a female dog when you only have time to check the FanShots section.) Outstanding work, Fred. Recced to Wayne’s wandering.
I find it interesting that the valley in the Spurs’ curve coincides with the emergence of Manu and Tony as second and third bananas. We were rebuilding while staying at the top. And now we’re back on a negative slope…
Straight from the No-Stat Zone to your computer!
Dunkin' Cheerleaders
by LatinD on Oct 1, 2009 11:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Good point about the valley of Manu and Parker. If we can continue slowly ease Duncan and Manu’s minutes to reduce their effect on the age and reduce risk of injury and at the same time integrate Hill, Blair, Mahinmi, Spurnando, etc., we could really see us continue on this negative slope.
I wonder who we will have when Duncan, Dice, and Ratliff are all gone. I assume Bonner won’t still be here either. I imagine we will have some veterans that are 4 years or so into their careers now.
by BlaseE on Oct 2, 2009 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tiago comes to mind. And a smile comes to my face.
by Gino20 on Oct 2, 2009 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When we lose TIm, we will gain salary cap room and will be able to go shopping. Al Jefferson would be the kind of guy that you could replace Tim with and still run the same kind of offense with the same personnel.
"GINOBILI!" -- Sir Charles
by Fred Silva on Oct 2, 2009 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point. I like me some Jefferson.
From under the radar to hanging in the rafters - Big50
5 in 10
by jollyrogerwilco on Oct 2, 2009 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I never really thought about Jefferson. The Wolves will probably want to ship him off at the end of his contract so they can rebuild……or continue rebuilding….or building….or clear manual labor expenses while they are looking for an architect….
by BlaseE on Oct 2, 2009 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if I understand this correctly the Spurs like ’em with “A little gray to show their experience, but not so much that it hides their vitality.”
Seems like there’s a product just perfect for that:

But sorry ladies it’s Just For Men
Haters beware: Kobe's drive for 5 starts now!-SLAM Magazine
by olf on Oct 2, 2009 10:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If Fisher had not gone bald 5 years ago, he could use some of that.
"GINOBILI!" -- Sir Charles
by Fred Silva on Oct 2, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Lakers are stuck with him because the youngsters haven’t worked out. But the Spurs seem to embrace it.
And hey that’s funny, Fisher’s head is almost the same shape as his Trophy.

Haters beware: Kobe's drive for 5 starts now!-SLAM Magazine
by olf on Oct 2, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ummm, Cap? Hello?
I’d like a ruling on the Douchiness factor that olf has going here. I’m thinking it’s right around a 4 on the 1-5 scale.
I just need to know before I decide to flag for being a douche. Help a sister out… would ya?
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed. - CMoney
by bellasa on Oct 2, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aw come on. I looked round until I found just the right “Touch of Gray” package – in the Spurs’ colors even. And I didn’t drag out the gold until he brought up Fisher’s dome.
Haters beware: Kobe's drive for 5 starts now!-SLAM Magazine
by olf on Oct 2, 2009 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed. - CMoney
by bellasa on Oct 2, 2009 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren’t they all angry?
::He said grumbling under his breath::
Whoa! It kinda of freaked me out seeing Victoria Jackson in a black & white Carson show. Was it that long ago?
Haters beware: Kobe's drive for 5 starts now!-SLAM Magazine
by olf on Oct 2, 2009 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
First, it originally aired in color; second, “I don’t need counseling or caramel ice cream!”
From under the radar to hanging in the rafters - Big50
5 in 10
by jollyrogerwilco on Oct 2, 2009 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was so odd.
Straight from the No-Stat Zone to your computer!
Dunkin' Cheerleaders
by LatinD on Oct 3, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reading more about that lady, she sounds like a moron.
Straight from the No-Stat Zone to your computer!
Dunkin' Cheerleaders
by LatinD on Oct 3, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good thing you’re the only Laker fan I can stand, olf. Plus, due to an oversight on SBN’s part, there isn’t actually a “douche” flag. You’re a lucky man. :)
My people call it "sarcasm." - Lauri
by CapHill on Oct 3, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was funny, I thought.
Straight from the No-Stat Zone to your computer!
Dunkin' Cheerleaders
by LatinD on Oct 3, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As well you should. Be proud my friend.
Haters beware: Kobe's drive for 5 starts now!-SLAM Magazine
by olf on Oct 2, 2009 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We've discussed this on Blazersedge
http://www.blazersedge.com/2008/12/9/687558/ages-of-success-in-the-nba
An amazing fanpost. He uses your methodology (average age weighted by minutes played), and basically proves your point that older and more experienced has historically meant better.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
by jscot on Oct 2, 2009 12:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Question
Great job overall, but I have one question. Is your MPG minutes per game played or total minutes divided by 82? On an 82 game basis your estimates for Tony and Manu are too high (actually, you’re too high for Manu in any event). Tony got 34 minutes per game played last year but was only 30 minutes on an 82 game basis. Manu’s career high was ‘07-’08 at 31 minutes per game played and 28 on an 82 game basis.
On an 82 game basis I agree with your estimates for the last five players on the bench but if your MPG is minutes per game played then you’re way low. For example, the JV and Malik Hairston were both around 10 minutes per game actually played last year.
Here are my guesses on an 82 game basis:
Parker – 31
Jefferson – 30
Duncan – 29
Ginobili – 27
McDyess – 25
Mason Jr. – 20
Finley – 15
Hill – 15
Blair – 14
Bonner – 14
End Five – 20
by doggydogworld on Oct 2, 2009 2:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
For the historical weighted averages, I used total minutes played. For my forecast of the ‘09-10 season, I used minutes per game to make it easier for the reader to understand and for me to derive. I purposefully was conservative with my forecast because I did not want any, "You’re forecast is absurd; the Spurs will play older players more," comments.
BTW, the weighted age for your estimates is 29.4. Mine was 29.7, Either way, the ballpark will be mid 29 which is in the championship window.
"GINOBILI!" -- Sir Charles
by Fred Silva on Oct 2, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking of the same thing (not specifically in terms of calculating weighted age, but just in the sense of guessing whoall the playing time will go to). Someone like Hairston may get 10 mpg, but only play 30 gms due to DNC-CDs. So over the season, he only fills up 300 min, which is less than 4 mpg. Also a few additional minutes must be filled b/c of the occasional overtime. And if Marcus Williams gets hurt, someone’s gonna have to fill those minutes …
by Gino20 on Oct 2, 2009 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, I am good at these typos. Yeah, I know — whoall is actually 2 words. And it should be “DNP-CDs”
by Gino20 on Oct 3, 2009 1:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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