Team evaluations: Better, same or worse?
by Manuwar on Jul 26, 2009 8:38 PM CDT
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PrintSpeak to any given NBA fan and he will most likely tell you that his team has gotten better since last year; either through trades, the draft, free agency or simply getting healthy. But every team can not be getting better can they? Is the leagues talent exponentially evolving thus making it possible that every team improves season after season? This can't be, but every time I turn around another team is inking a player who should help their team. And younger teams who are standing pat have to be getting better just by a natural progression, right? Join me in taking brief a team by team evaluation and feel free to add your disagreements comments about who got better, who stayed the same, and who got worse.
Who got better?
Atlanta Hawks: They have their core of, Joe Johnson, Al Hortford, Josh Smith and Mike Bibby returning and add Jamal Crawford. Hortford and Smith should continue to develop and getting Crawford for players who barely contributed last season will be a big addition. If Marvin Williams leaves it could have a big impact but lets just say he stays for now which means the ATL improves.
Boston Celtics: Their stars are getting older but not too old. Adding Rasheed gives them perhaps the best bigs rotation in the league. LA fans will dispute this though....Griffin, Camby, Kaman. ;) See what I did there?
Chicago Bulls: Yeah they lost Ben Gordon but they will be getting Luol Deng back, who missed about half the season including all of their epic playoff series against the Celtics, and they have another season to gel with their midseason additions of Brad Miller and John Salmons. But the main reason I think they will be better this year is because of the development of Derrick Rose. He is the real deal and we've only just seen the tip of the iceberg with him.
Cleveland Cavaliers: Shaq improves them - not by much, but he improves them. Jamario Moon and Anthony Parker give them much needed length at their wing position.
Dallas Mavericks: Their off season moves are so Mavericks like: no consideration for defense, rebounding, or basketball IQ but in their own Cubanesque way they did manage to improve.
Golden State Warriors: In summer league play we got to see what common Warriors fans have been raving about for a while now in Anthony Randolph. I'll reserve the comparisons but he's a smooth criminal that can score from anywhere inside the three point line with a variety of moves. They also drafted Steph Curry (stud) and should have a suspension free Monta Ellis all season long. Go Dubs.
Indiana Pacers: Their offseason moves and draft didn't turn any heads but I still like what they've done. Dahntay Jones should fit in well along side Danny Granger and while drafting Tyler Hansbrough at 13 over all might be a reach, I still think he's an NBA ready big who will contribute off the bench immediately. Also let's not forget Dunleavy only played in 18 games last season and will be ready to go.
Los Angeles Clippers: They drafted a stud. I think they're genius for getting Zack Randolph as far away from Blake Griffin as possible. The last thing their savior needs is to be bumping around with Z-bo and his posse.
Oklahoma City Thunder: Durrant, Green, Westbrook, Harden; they're steddily improving. Nothing jaw dropping or reckless, just one right move after another. Presti doing his thang.
Portland Trail Blazers: Like the Spurs they went out and addressed their needs. In Portland's case it was the point guard position. But even with out the new signing of Andre Miller I would have said they're getting better. They're just so young and improving each season since Brandon Roy's arrival.
San Antonio Spurs: They're the big winners this offseason. No need to go into great detail. Lets just say that any possible way they could have gotten better they did. Trades, check. Draft, check. Free agency, check. Oh, and did I mention Manu Ginobili will be back?
Toronto Raptors: Turkoglu will have a greater impact on his team than any other player who moved this offseason. Will there be better teams than the Raptors? Sure. But no team will have improved more because of one new player.
Who stayed the same?
Charlotte Bobcats: I like the moves they made in the middle of last season and I like Okafor more than most people--I think he unjustifiably gets left out of the conversation when discussing stud C/PF's--but they are what they are to me. Larry Brown might be able to work some magic over the course of a few more years but for now I see no movement.
Los Angeles Lakers: Despite recent reports I'm assuming they will resign Odom because I don't want to jinx anything. There is a give and take with the Artest-Ariza swap so lets just call it a push. The crappy thing about them coming back as the same is that they're the champs--they didn't need to improve.
Memphis Grizzlies: I love their draft: Thabeet, Carroll, Young. I am a huge DeMarre Carroll fan and it pains me to see him land on a team with Zack Randolph. I don't want to pile on Randolph but he has a unique Iverson like quality to him. That is, he manages efficient stats and still makes everyone around him worse. So, their draft plus development of Gasol, Mayo, Conley only equalizes the Randolph trade.
Miami Heat: Unless they land Odom they are who they thought they were. One man show - same as they ever were :)
New Orleans Hornets: They had a disappointing season last year by some experts accounts but I think last year was just about what we should have guessed from them. Two seasons ago when they took the Spurs to 7 games in the playoffs I think, much like the Nuggets of this year, it was a perfect storm for them. Expect them to be a mid to bottom seeded playoff team.
New York Knicks: They make too many moves to ever develop any kind of chemistry. They ship players out with talent and get players back with talent and there's never a difference from one year to the next because they don't develop continuity and most of their guys play for themselves. Maybe Gallinari shows us why he was drafted 6th overall 2 seasons ago and maybe coach D'Antoni gets his run and gun going to perfection but probably they will make 9 midseason trades/pickups and end up just the same as before.
Orlando Magic: Even though they got Vince Carter and Brandon Bass I was tempted to say they got worse. Thats how much I like Turkoglu as a player. But all things considered (A fully healthy Jameer, resigning Gortat, loss of Courtney Lee, Rafer Alston, Tony Battie) they will be right back in the thick of things out East, not worse for the wear but definitely not better.
Philadelphia 76ers: They'll be getting Elton Brand who missed fifty plus games last season but they are going to be in a world of hurt by losing Andre Miller. Do I think Andre Miller is as valuable of a player as Elton Brand? Typically I'd say no but they have no one close to Andre Miller to replace him and they are the type of team that really needs a good point guard.
Utah Jazz: It looks like they might be in for a roster shake up but as things stand now they will be the same as they were. A perpetually good but not great team.
Who got worse?
Denver Nuggets: They'll still make the playoffs but they won't be the same edgy, scrappy, defensive team we saw in the second half of last season. Guys like J.R. Smith and Kenyon Martin will rest on their laurels and take a small slide backwards and they also lost Dahntay Jones who played some mean defense for them. Last year was a perfect storm for them that they won't be able to replicate.
Detroit Pistons: This one comes with an asterisk because I really like their two big signings of Gordon and Villanueva, but from one year to the next loosing McDyess and 'Sheed is more of a hit than the newbies will be able to replace; especially in the defense and rebounding department. I like the way they're rebuilding though.
Houston Rockets: My heart goes out to Yao and all the Houston Rockets faithful.
Milwaukee Bucks: Redd and Bogut will be back after each missing close to 50 games last season and I like their drafting of Jodie Meeks, but the loss of Jefferson and Villanueva will be too much. Take a step back, young bucks.
Minnesota Timberwolves: They're playing for the the future that goes beyond next season. Trading away Miller and Foye wasn't necessarily a bad move but it won't help them in the short term.
New Jersey Nets: They're another team playing for the future. I feel like they should have gotten a little more for Vince Carter but certainly could have done worse than Courtney Lee. Still though, they will be taking a step back next season even if Harris improves yet again.
Phoenix Suns: Even though Steve Nash might still be the best in the game at setting up his teammates with easy shots (look for Jason Richardson to have a big statistical year) the Suns didn't get enough in return for Shaq to even duplicate their mediocre season last year. They'll play little or no defense and miss out on the playoffs for the second straight season. Kerr not doing his thang.
Sacramento Kings: The loss of Salmons and Miller is too much for them to improve next season. The bad thing about the Kings though is their future doesn't look incredibly promising either. Martin is good but not great, Casspi, Evans, Thompson, and Hawes don't strike me as franchise players either. So right now they suck, and in their future compared to young teams like OKC, Minnesota, Golden State, Portland etc. they will still suck.
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Interesting post, although you sound a bit optimistic across the board.
You’ve gotta love the Trail Blazers and OKC building a nice roster for the future… I’ll be watching those 2 closely in the future.
But its all about Spurs, Lakers, Celtics, Cavs this year, methinks. Maybe Magic, Denver, NO, or Portland sneak in somehow, but I doubt it.
Portland will definitely be in, and I’m almost certain they won’t have to do any sneaking. That team’s potential to get better is just ridiculous if they stay healthy.
"You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas." -Davy Crockett
"Give me an army of West Point graduates, and I'll win a battle. Give me a handful of Texas Aggies, and I'll win a war." -Gen. George S. Patton
by spursfan4ever on Jul 26, 2009 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions
LD or Rik feel free to spruce this up and make any corrections. I proof read but the Profit has been known to make some mistakes before :)
Just call me The Profit
No correction needed. Typos are unimportant, as long as they’re not unitentionally funny. In which case you’re screwed. Great post, man. Recced.
Straight from the No-Stat Zone to your computer!
Dunkin' Cheerleaders
Of course I said that and then justified the text.
Straight from the No-Stat Zone to your computer!
Dunkin' Cheerleaders
Nuggets – not sure I agree with them taking a step back, though you can never tell with Karl’s team. I believe their run will only improve team morale and hunger
Hornets – free fallin’
Rockets – Lost Yao but will overcome this and be stronger for it
Blazers – as a Spurs fan, these guys worry me. Young, talented, hungry
Lakers – I hear Florida gives tax breaks for athletes names Lamar
Jazz – always tough at home, but away…..
OKC and GS – both improved and looking to go middle rank
EAST
Bulls – Looking strong
Wizards – May surprise
Cavs – Playoffs the only thing that matters
Celtics – up to KG
Magic – got worse with the VC move and Turk loss
Hawks – ? Hasn’t Joe Smith played for them before?
Pistons – Leadership is totally gone
"It's the ten-thousandth and one hammer blow that makes the team"
Orlando did improve during the off season. I think that carter is a better player and a better fit than Hedo. They also improved their front court with bass and retaining Gortat. The also added a good shooter in barnes.
How can chicago have improve if they lost their best player?
Other than that is a good list.
These are my playoff teams:
West East
Lakers Celtics
Spurs Magic
Nuggets Cavs
Mavs Wizards
Blazers Hawks
Hornets Heat ( If they get Odom and Booz then 3rd)
Suns Chicago
Jazz Detroit
I’m agreeing with you on Orlando. They can move Lewis back to the 3 now that they have a real 4 in Bass. Their primary lineup looks something like this:
Jameer Nelson
Vince Carter
Rashard Lewis
Brandon Bass
Dwight Howard
I know that using ‘Shard at the 4 last year gave them a mismatch, but the good teams can exploit that mismatch on the other end, and the Lakers did. They can still play smallball using Barnes as the 3 with Shard at the 4 in those situations, but the net result is that they’ve actually made their lineup more flexible. I love Turk, but still think the Magic have made a significant upgrade.
I used to be a c+x kind of guy, but nowadays I just go nuts with my z. - LatinD
Retire Bowen's #12!
SF87...
The Bulls didn’t lose their best players, his name is Derrick Rose. Also, Barnes is not a shooter….have you seen the awkward thing he calls a shot?
I tend to agree about Orlando, but it’ll take time to see if them mesh like the last couple of years.
Good argument for Orlando, I forgot their pickup of Bass. I was hoping we might get him. As for, Chicago, I think they are still strong contenders in the middle field of the East
"It's the ten-thousandth and one hammer blow that makes the team"
by Joe deLarios on Jul 27, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Kerr not doing his thang.
too bad. i really liked kerr and i had hoped he would succeed (of course, not at the expense of the spurs), but he seems to be screwing up the franchise more and more each year. IMO, they should start exploring nash trade possibilities. i know they won’t do it, but they should look towards the 2010 free agency. as it is, i think they already have 20 sumthing mil coming off the books. what’s 13 more? i heard shaq might be available…
Come on, Kerr has done a great job hahaha. He’s a Spur, he is just finishing the job that the spurs started on the court. Kerr should give us Stoudaumire, like Jerry West gave Pau to the lakers. Bonner and 2nd rnd pick for Amare. That’s an even trade compared to the Lakers getting Pau.
good point.
hey, bonner and fin for barbosa… the salaries match… i was a bit excited when the spurs drafted him.
by theonlyromeo on Jul 27, 2009 1:49 AM CDT up reply actions
might be a repeat, but...
Chilai, no one can defend you — you’re indefensible.
5 in 10
I want my Manu o;—-)
Great article and sum up.
To add a couple things:
Detroit had a great draft. Dajuan Summers and Austin Daye are both good players so I think they have improved even without Dice and Wallace.
Bucks also let Sessions walk which is another big one.
The Wolves might be better just by getting Al Jefferson healthy and their bad is relatively low to begin with.
Atlanta-I don’t think the goy better even with the addition of Crawford. Josh Smith needs to stop shooting 3s and attack the rim as much as possible. They fall into more of the same.
Boston- All that trash talk (mostly vs smaller players or nobodies) finally caught up with KG’s health! Better with Sheed? Maybe. I’d go with the same.
Chicago-getting Deng back. are they going to say that at the beginning of every year? As mentioned, I like Salmons. Better? more of the same to me.
Cavs- Lebron is wearing a Tux and Shaq is riding coat-tails. Anthony Parker is solid, Moon is just athletic. Just a little better for the playoffs, which could be the difference btwn ECF and a finals appearrance.
Dallas-Kidd will help find Marions game that he had in Phx and lost in Miami. If so, maybe a little better.
GSW-Does Anthony Randolph have a nickname that I don’t know about? So they get rid of Crawford and add Curry. I’d say they’re about the same.
Pacers-They finally got rid of Tinsley off their books, that makes them better already. LOVE Granger. Wish he’d rebound a little more for my fantasy team. Whats Hibbert’s progress like?
Clippers- I really like their last 3 draft picks, Thornton, Gordon, and of course Griffin. Better indeed.
OKC- Playoffs?! Durant needs W’s to make the playoffs and the All-Star team. Better overall, yes.
Blazers-LOVE Roy. Rudy asked their FO to sign someone to throw alley-oops to him since Sergio is gone. Check. Better with Miller.
Toronto- I’m not that high on Turkoglu as you are. He can’t defend and doesn’t rebound. He shoots step back 3s and he always drives left.
I think Orlando defnitely improves with Vince. Vince’s game has matured, and he is finally relevant (RJ’s term) because he is on a contender for the first time in his career. Guys like him flourish next to a dominant big man. I think he will take full advantage of the opportunity.
76ers: Have been grooming Louis Williams to take over the pg spot for awhile now. I think he’s ready.
BLAIR FORCE ONE
Ask any Chicago fan..
and they’ll most likely say they believe their team got worse. I agree. Ben Gordon is going to be hard to replace. You might like Deng, but he has no spine.
I also believe the Grizzlies and Lakers got better, while the Pistons actually stayed about the same, compared to their performance last season.
Detroit will not improve much on it’s standing, but with a major roster makeover, this is going to be a new team that will make strides over the next 2 to 3 seasons.
Memphis improved in every aspect. They now have talented players at every position on the court, and a little depth to boot. The Grizz, Clippers, Thunder, Hornets, and maybe the Suns and Warriors will create a hard fight for the final 2 playoff spots in the West.
And finally, the Lakers improved, because Artest, at this point in his career, is still better than the raw talent of Trevor Ariza. In a year or two, this may not be the case, especially once Ariza gets a chance to prove himself as a scorer in Houston. But Ariza brings better versatility, plus better scoring capabilities, than Ariza did. Remember, the Lakers still have the 6’7" Vujacic to harass point guards. He became redundant with Ariza around, now he can get back his playing time.
"The problem actually is that PER is a extra-long, double high wagon load of horse crap." - timbo (7/3/09)
No one has mentioned this yet, but I don’t agree with you putting the Bobcats in the “stayed the same” category, or at least not with your reasoning for it. The bobcats started off last season terribly. They had bad personnel for Larry Brown, and throughout the season, he got rid of players that didn’t defend (Richardson for Diaw and Bell), Added players that could (Diop) and even got good deals on players that other teams were looking to dump (Radmanovic for Morrison and Brown). They started playing well in the middle of the season once the team started buying more into the coach’s philosophy, and then BAM! Gerald Wallace got injured for a good stretch, in which they lost too many games. Once he came back, and around the end of the season, they tried making a push for the playoffs (playing at around 500) but ultimately weren’t enough to compete against the scorching bulls at the time.
Now, you don’t think that with a whole year for the new players that they acquired last season to gel, and if Gerald Wallace stays healthy (I know it’s a big if, but you didn’t state that in your post), and also with the development of soon to be second year player DJ Augustine, that Larry Brown can’t have this team playing at a little less than 500 ball and make them get that 8th spot in the East at the very least?
Good post regardless though, of course, I have some differing opinions on some teams, but I figured I should mention the bobcats and give Larry Brown some credit since no one has uttered a word about them.
"He's Manu Ginobili"
don’t you mean… and then “CRASH!”
BLAIR FORCE ONE
by FreshmakerDTM on Jul 27, 2009 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Gerald wallace will get injured like he always does. He has a perfect record at it. And while I expecto Augustin to improve, still I cant see a modicum of bench presence or new players that matter. They are not bottom dwellers for sure, but I dont see them reaching the mandatory 38 victories to get that 8th spot.
"Rock and Roll angels bring that HardRock Hallelujah"
I think the team that improved the most is Toronto.
I think the chemistry on that team is going to remind a lot of people of 7-Seconds-or-Less Suns teams. I predict they’ll be the 3 or 4 seed in the East, but I don’t know how far they’ll get in the playoffs without better interior defenders.
The Turkoglu/Bosh pick-and-roll is going to be pretty much unguardable.
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
Toronto was terrible last season. I dont know if adding Turkoglu and a rookie will make such a huge turnaround. I see a playoff berth, but maybe 7th or 8th
"Rock and Roll angels bring that HardRock Hallelujah"
While they were terrible for stretches, it was mostly due to injuries and the roster changes. Don’t forget the failed experiment with O’Neal. I really do think Turkoglu will add a new dimension to the team that will allow them to run more and be more flexible with their line ups. Calderon doesn’t have to play PG all the time, he can become a spot up shooter as well.
While they might not be the 3 seed, I don’t see why a 4th-5th seed would be out of reach. I think their number one concern will be trying to stay healthy, if they do, I think they can make some noise during the regular season.
while I agree with most of what you said, mostly about them being a 4-5 seed in the east, and last year failing with the O’Neal thing, and Turkoglu adding a new dimension to the team, I don’t think Turk will allow them to run more. He’s just never really been a full court, up and down player. He’s most efficient in a half court setting, playing the pick and roll (him and Bosh working that would be nice). I still think Toronto will try to run more next season though. But I don’t think that Turkoglu will necessarily allow them to run more. He helps the team in other ways, but running is not something i’ve seen him do.
"He's Manu Ginobili"
by the little o on Jul 29, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
i don’t get why a lot of people are high on turkoglu?
in my opinion, he hit his ceiling two seasons ago.
BLAIR FORCE ONE
by FreshmakerDTM on Jul 29, 2009 8:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Fresh, people will always be high on a guy who hit numerous “big shots” in a single postseason. And it doesn’t matter whether the shots are game-winners, or just to tie it up. The playoffs are where reputations are made, and people assume that if a player has done it once — he’ll do it again. And they’ll continue to believe this in the face of insurmountable evidence to the contrary.
So, when Hedo had the success he had in getting his team into the Finals, it was almost guaranteed that he’d be viewed as being more of a player that he probably deserves.
5 in 10
I want my Manu o;—-)
Interesting analysis. If a player like Hedo proves himself in the playoffs like he has the last two years, and is a top team’s go to player, does that make him “more of a player than he deserves” or “the player he deserves to be viewe as”. Look at Vince Carter or Gilbert Arenas. Neither of those guys have ever taken over for their team’s in a big game yet people, some people, think they are the shit.
Maybe it is the case that Hedo deserves to be viewed as much more of a player than MANY other people get viewed. As an exercise, who in the East is “more of a player” than Hedo?
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Jul 29, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Carter has never had the luxury of playing next to a 1st team all-nba big in his career, like Hedo did the past 2 seasons. Carter has been the best player on every team he’s been on (Kidd fans might argue here). Hedo can’t say the same, he’s never been the best player on the Magic.
BLAIR FORCE ONE
by FreshmakerDTM on Jul 29, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Let me put it this way then, I wouldn’t trade Manu for Vince Carter. Period. I don’t care if Vince’s numbers are better and if Manu has never played without Tim Duncan. When it comes time to win a game, I want Manu.
You can’t overvalue guys who step up when the team needs him. Hedo, in that sense, was that for the Magic. Dwight Howard, for all his talents, never carried that team in the fourth quarter. Being able to carry a team to victory in the fourth quarter is worth a hell of a lot more than whatever stats Vince Carter has been putting up.
This isn’t the clutch as in “do they hit the big shot in the last 5 seconds” thing. This is the clutch, when shit gets tough in the fourth quarter of a big game and your team really needs a basket, 1) are you the guy they go to? and 2) do you deliver more often than you fail? and 3) is it the time when you are at your best?
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Jul 29, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Horry was great for the last second shots, or somewhere around that time period. Teams never really relied on him to create offense when in tough situations, he just came through within the flow of the offense. I don’t think you’re being serious though, but just throwing it out there anyways.
"He's Manu Ginobili"
by the little o on Jul 29, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
how did Manu enter the convo?
I was comparing Vince vs Hedo.
Hedo was their go-to-guy by default. Dwight is a poor FT shooter with no post game. Shard has no handle/post game either. Nelson was injured. (Before that, he was the one lighting up Tony on the perimeter closing out the Spurs in the fourth, sweeping us last season). Lee well was Lee. That left Hedo. What would he do? Pull up 3, step back 3, pick n roll driving to his left, always to his left.
I wouldn’t trade Manu for Vince either. But last year I’m pretty sure I posted on 48moh that I would’ve traded pieces for Vince.
BLAIR FORCE ONE
by FreshmakerDTM on Jul 29, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Manu entered the conversation because he is somebody, like Hedo, who has performed well in the 4th quarter of big games. Manu, like Hedo, has value well beyond the season averages that you can find on the team’s stat sheet.
Whether Hedo was their only option or not, he delivered. So, I think that you can’t overvalue that when it comes to what somebody brings to a team. Conversely, Vince Carter does NOT bring that and he will have to for the Magic because, as you mentioned, nobody else will. On the flip side, Hedo will bring that to Toronto which is probably something they desperately need.
“Pull up 3, step back 3, pick n roll driving left, always to the left.” Gee, who does that sound like?
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Jul 29, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Vince won’t step up in the fourth of big games? You have to be IN big games to step up in them. Vince has never been surrounded with enough talent, especially a talented big like Duncan, to get far into the playoffs.
Put Manu on those Toronto teams and Nets teams and you’ll get “Vince Carter stats” and no team success.
Theres a reason why young Kobe, Wade, Manu could get busy in the fourth quarter of big games, because there’s a dominant big in the paint that gets a lot of attention. Vince never had someone like that on his team.
BLAIR FORCE ONE
by FreshmakerDTM on Jul 29, 2009 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I think you could make a counter argument that dominant bigs don’t get very far in the playoffs without having somebody that would step up. Kobe, Wade, Manu, etc.
On the other hand, there are guys who stepped up to carry their teams without dominant bigs in the paint. Paul Pierce — no, I don’t consider Garnett dominant in the paint, LeBron, Iverson, Billups/Anthony, the current Lakers with Kobe — no, I don’t consider Gasol dominant, good, but not dominant. Dirk got his team to the Finals. Assuming you consider deep in the playoffs to be the Conference Finals or more, then there are lots of guy who were able to step up and get their teams there without dominant bigs in the middle.
Sure, it helps to have a dominant big in the middle. Those are the guys that carry you for the first three quarters, but then teams take that away and fouls don’t get called and everything gets tougher. Maybe Vince Carter can play that role in Orlando. I’m just saying that Hedo did it and that it should be valued as such. He’s a PROVEN fourth quarter performer in big games. That has a lot of value far beyond the numbers. Much like Manu’s value to the Spurs.
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Jul 29, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions
True about the first statement. Still, Vince had no big.
Pierce had Ray/KG(former MVP). Those guys spread the floor so Pierce can get to his psot and their team defense was very good that year.
Lebron/Iverson-former MVP’s. Iverson’s Sixers had good team D anchored by Mutombo. Lebron is a freak and on another level than Vince. Weren’t the cavs up there in team defense last year?
Billups was surrounded by solid talent all around, again team defense in the pistons years.
Billups/Anthony and Nene had a breakout year this year.
Dirk was an MVP that year too right? I think he could be considered the dominant big.
Pau doesn’t get the credit he deserves. He was a beast last year.
Manu is proven, indeed. But Hedo? Hedo will still be just Hedo to me, nothing more, nothing less. To say his value is like Manu’s value to the Spurs?……heresy
BLAIR FORCE ONE
by FreshmakerDTM on Jul 29, 2009 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Interesting, career PER’s (RegSeason, Playoffs)
Manu 21.5, 20.4
Vince 21.4, 21.4
Hedo 15.1, 12.4
Hedo making an impact in Toronto? It wil be the new Orlando. Bosh in the paint like Howard, Bargnani standing behind the arc like Shard.
BLAIR FORCE ONE
by FreshmakerDTM on Jul 29, 2009 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I don’t think Bosh is really a paint kind of guy. Do you?
What are their respective PER’s over the last two years?
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Jul 29, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Bosh has a little post game, face up game. He is more comfortable shooting the pick and pop from the top of they key than running the pick and roll from the games i’ve watched. Bargnani should be in the paint, but he likes shooting 3s.
PER RegSeason07/08, 08/09, Playoffs 07/08, 08/09
Manu 24.3, 22.9 17.1, N/A (injured)
Vince 18.8, 19.3 16.9, N/A (missed playoffs)
Hedo 17.8 , 14.8 15.3, 13.2
BLAIR FORCE ONE
by FreshmakerDTM on Jul 29, 2009 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
okay, i’ll name some easy ones first, Wade, Lebron, Pierce, and maybe Joe Johnson is at the same level, or slightly lower than Hedo.
I was going to put Ray Allen, but the team celtics never really relied on him throughout a tough fourth quarter, they just sometimes run plays for him to shoot during the last seconds. KG plays with the same intensity almost throughout the whole time, so it’s impossible for him to up his game during clutch times.
Arenas is good enough to be in the second tier of players in the east, maybe alongside joe johnson. He comes through when his team needs him in the fourth, but hasn’t done so in the playoffs because his team hasn’t been healthy and he hasn’t been healthy the past couple few years. I remember the first of many series between the cavs and the wizards a few years ago, in one game, him and lebron were just going bucket for bucket in the fourth, the Cavs won the game because Lebron got away with the most obvious travel that the refs didn’t call. Cavs won, my week was ruined.
"He's Manu Ginobili"
by the little o on Jul 29, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Hedo is darn good make no mistake of it. But Toronto is just not a very good team. And I dont know how good Calderon can play alongisde a wing who demands the ball a little. He is not a scoring PG like Nelson.
"Rock and Roll angels bring that HardRock Hallelujah"
I think Calderon’s 3 point shot is good enough to still make him effective while Hedo has the ball. He probably isn’t good at getting open without the ball (running through screens, back door cuts) but he’ll be effective if Hedo makes a play that leave Calderon open to spot up. He’s an international player, fundamentally sound.
"He's Manu Ginobili"
by the little o on Jul 29, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I think Vince will fit better in Orlando than hedo did. Carter can create for others, just like hedo and can take over the game just like Hedo, but Carter is a much better scorer than Hedo.
Also is think that adding Carter give them more versatility. I know that Hedo created mismatcha for many teams, but a good team can exploit that Mismacht in the other end.
The magic now can go big or small:
Big
Horward
Bass
Lewis
Carter
Nelson
Small
Howard
Lewis
Carter
Pietrus or barnes
Nelson
they often went big last year also with tony battie at the 4. He’s bigger than Bass too. They traded Battie to get Carter though.
"He's Manu Ginobili"
by the little o on Jul 29, 2009 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Hedo is a nightmare of a mismatch for opposing teams but he is rarely exploited on the defensive end. In the finals he saw time on Kobe-the best offensive player in the word-and held his own.
I see what you’re saying about the Magics’ overall versitility but I really think Hedo was their glue last season. I guess only time will tell but I stick by my predictions. Magic will be no better and no worse than last year despite their “upgrades”.
Just call me The Profit
Interesting debate
And I am squarely on the side of AusTechSpur on this one. Basketball is unique as a sport because at the highest level of competition, games frequently come down to who can create scoring opportunities in isolation situations in the 4th quarter. I’m sure everybody’s seen the video of a Celtics huddle in which KC Jones is halfway through drawing up a complex play when Larry Bird interrupts: “Coach, just get me the ball.” And there’s a little pause and the Coach says, “OK.” That’s it. It’s the difference between Tim Duncan and David Robinson…and I loved DRob as a player, I still argue to this day he’s the greatest team defensive player I’ve ever seen…but you couldn’t just give him the ball and tell him to get it done. He didn’t have a go-to move.
"Give me chonchon."
by Slowpoke Rodriguez on Jul 30, 2009 12:43 AM CDT reply actions
Basketball is unique as a sport because at the highest level of competition, games frequently come down to who can create scoring opportunities in isolation situations in the 4th quarter. I’m sure everybody’s seen the video of a Celtics huddle in which KC Jones is halfway through drawing up a complex play when Larry Bird interrupts: "Coach, just get me the ball." And there’s a little pause and the Coach says, "OK." That’s it.
::goosebumps::
So well said. And I can’t wait for the season to start. I want more of those opportunities for Timmy.
Im looking out for the Portland Trail Blazers. They now have Andre Miller who is good at scoring and setting up his teamates. He is going to a young athletic team that is already good. Im looking for the Portland Trail Blazers to be a deadly team espically if Oden get better at his postion.
GO SPURS GO
SPURS 2010 NBA Champions (if team is healty LoL)
As long as McMillan learns his lesson and accepts to make the team run sometimes, then they’ll be somewhat formidable. I still feel that Oden is a year away from being serviceable for a playoff team, and that they’re too young and inexperienced to make too much of an impact. They got demolished by the Rockets. One thing I will give them, and hope for them to succeed in however, is in beating the Lakers in a playoff series. I don’t know how, but they got their number. This is mostly due to Roy being able to somewhat match Bryant and defend him, Aldridge dragging Gasol/Odom out enough, and Pryzbilla (the Vanilla Gorilla) being too much for Bynum/Pau). There’s also Blake or Miller now, being better than Fisher. this team just matches so well against the Lakers, and they’re capable of running with them since they’re so young and athletic. I hope they beat the Lakers for us next season. I forgot Fernandez being better than the Lakers bench wings (Vujajic and Walton).
"He's Manu Ginobili"
by the little o on Jul 31, 2009 1:14 AM CDT up reply actions
IMO, There’s only one reason Portland does well against the Lakers: size. They were the only team in the West with enough talented, athletic 7-footers to somewhat neutralize the Lakers’ frontcourt. With Oden apparently showing signs of growth, we might want to be wary of them next year as well. Anyway, I think Theo helps us more than he seems to at first, but I’m working on that story right now, so I don’t want to spoil the details just yet.
I used to be a c+x kind of guy, but nowadays I just go nuts with my z. - LatinD
Retire Bowen's #12!
While you pose a great answer as to why Portland does well against Lakers (size, and I completely agree), I think the fact that they’re young also helps them a lot. Aldridge’s youth better helps him try to defend Odom (something he probably won’t be able to do if he were old). Roy’s youth, blah blah blah Kobe, same as Alrdidge. This team is young, and long.
I’m looking forward to your story. Thanks rikiddo.
"He's Manu Ginobili"
by the little o on Jul 31, 2009 1:44 AM CDT up reply actions
You guys just made me think of something…although I think Miller causes as many problems as he solves for the Blazers in general, his defense won’t be an issue against the Lakers. In fact, his size will help while his lack of foot speed won’t matter. He can even help on the glass…maybe those guys do know what they’re doing up there…
"Give me chonchon."
by Slowpoke Rodriguez on Jul 31, 2009 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions
i completely agree, he won’t be an issue against the Lakers. Portland better hope they meet the Lakers next season then.
"He's Manu Ginobili"
by the little o on Jul 31, 2009 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Word, if they meet us they’re frakkin’ toast…:)
"Give me chonchon."
by Slowpoke Rodriguez on Jul 31, 2009 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions
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