Breaking it down..tale of the tape
[Note from ATS: I wanted to put this on the front page a couple days ago, but thought I would do some formatting to make it more readable. I agree with about 50% of it which is a 500% increase in how much of CC's posts I normally agree with.]
OK, here is my attempt to analyze what went wrong with the Spurs and how to get better.
The Basics of winning playoff basketball. Much like John Wooden said, winning is a pyramid of success. The foundations are:
- A. Height
- B. Length
- C. Athleticism
Then, add on a second layer:
- A. The heart of a champion
- B. The brass of a bad ass
Then, a third layer:
- A. The wisdom of experience
- B. The energy of youth
- C. The grit of a defender
- D. The mind of an expert
For the X's & O's, the basics are these:
- A. Start with a shot blocking interior defense
- B. Press on the shooters and funnel them to the baseline. The baseline acts as an extra defender. Never allow penetration to the middle
- C. Never give up offensive rebounds
- D. On offense, work the ball inside to out, not the other way around
- E. Have a floor general on the court at all times
- F. Have a proven cold-blooded shooter(s) as your primary weapon in the last minutes of a game
- G. The ball must touch at least 3 sets of hands each possession, pass the ball around, avoid ball hogging
The overall goals
- A. Designing a team to beat your arch rival
- B. Defense
- C. Post Offense
Quickly, I will compare the 05 Spurs to the 09 Spurs
| 05 Spurs | 09 Spurs | |
| Nazr Mohammed 6-10 (shot blocker, defender, post guy) | Matt Bonner 6-10 | |
| Tim Duncan 6-11 | Tim Duncan 6-11 | |
| Bruce Bowen 6-7 (Kobe stopper, all world defender) | Michael Finley 6-7 | |
| Manu Ginobili 6-6 | Manu Ginobili 6-6 | |
| Tony Parker 6-2 | Tony Parker 6-2 | |
| Rasho Nesterovic 7-0 (shot blocker, low post threat) | Fabricio Oberto 6-10 | |
| Robert Horry 6-10 (Championship pedigree, mouthbuster) | Kurt Thomas 6-9 | |
| Brent Barry 6-7 (Dependable shooter, clutch shooter) | Ime Udoka 6-5 | |
| Beno Udrih 6-3 (low turnover guy) | George Hill 6-2 | |
| Devin Brown 6-5 (athletic, energetic) | Roger Mason 6-5 | |
| Tony Massenburg 6-9 (low post roughneck) | Drew Gooden 6-10 | |
| Glenn Robinson 6-7 (roughneck and old guy with attitude) | Jacque Vaughn 6-1 |
- The 05 bench towered over the 09 bench by 11 inches
- The 09 roster had no true shot blocker aside from Duncan
- The 09 roster had no mouthbusting bad ass
- The 09 roster had no backup floor general
- The 09 roster had only 1 roughneck in the post (Thomas), the 05 team had 5 (Mohammed, Nesto, Horry, Masenburg and Robinson)
- The 09 roster had a cold-blood shooter (Mason Jr), but destroyed his confidence and didn't play him in the clutch
- The 09 roster no new guy with championship pedigree (funny how great teams always have a Horry, Elie, Ron Harper, Sam Cassell, Fisher, etc....)
The breakdown by pyramid points.
2pt: Height
2pt: Length
2pt: Athleticism
3pt: Heart of a champion
1pt: Wisdom of experience
1pt: Energy of youth
1pt: Grit of a defender
1pt: The mind of an expert
Mohammed: H,L,A,E,G (8)
Nesterovich: H,L,G (5)
Horry: H,L,A,HE,W,G,M (12)
Barry: L,W,M (4)
Udrih:
Brown: A,E (3)
Massenburg G (1)
Robinson W (1)
TOTAL: 34 pts
Bonner: H (2)
Finley: W,M (2)
Oberto: H,W (3)
Thomas: H,W (3)
Uodka: E (1)
Hill: L,A, E (5)
Mason: M (1)
Gooden: H (2)
Vaughn: W (1)
TOTAL: 20 pts
So, the make up of the 09 team was not good, that is black and white.
Current Players Breakdown:
Duncan: Knees are gone. Still an all-star, but not a dominate post player every possession, has maybe a couple more good years left with limited minutes.
Ginobili: One of the greats, but ravaged by injuries. We need to pray he takes less money and stays healthy.
Parker: In his prime. Can not be the go to guy in the playoffs. A flight risk if not treated well.Taken a lot of abuse from Pop. Roll out the red carpet for him.
Mason Jr: Great clutch shooter. A solid two guard. Confidence shaken badly by having to play at the point. Gets a free pass to move onto next season. Needs to really work on his D.
Oberto: Fallen out of the rotation. Was never fast, but has slowed to a crawl. Still has great fundamentals, but not a legit interior defender any more. Gonzo.
Bonner: A three point specialist and ass clown, at three million a year one of the worst signings in the history of the Spurs, Scola makes the same money, nuff said. Fucking gonzo.
Thomas: A shaky midrange jumpshooter and ok banger inside. Giving up a first rounder for this dude was a horrible mistake. The association, Europe and D-League are filled with 6-9 guys that can bang inside and little else, he is on a nice downward spiral to boot, a disaster in my opinion. He could be a great mentor to a young power forward, problem is...we have the greatest power forward in history starting ahead of him, Duncan can mentor any new guy better than he can. Gonzo.
Udoka: Nice game, like his upside. He had the potential to be a mouthbusting bad ass, but never lived up to it. Not on par with real bad asses like Elie and Horry, had his chance and didn't display what was expected, he should have knocked some guys around but didn't. I like him, but...gonzo.
JV:A ghost of a roster spot. GONZO.
Hill: Not my first choice during the draft, but not bad, showed some heart, has long arms, can block shots at the guard position, played pretty well in the post season despite Pop mind fucking him, I say let him run the backup point, give him the ball and see what he can do. Free pass to next season. He is in.
Gooden: Almost, but not. Almost a good rebounder, almost good post offense, almost good post defense, almost good midrange jumper. Gonzo.
Finley: A great clutch shooter and heart guy, defense is a complete liability and that means he is gonzo, no room in the association for a two guard who can't play D.
Possible Free Agents/Trades:
Ben Gordon: His defense sucks ass. He is a complete ball hog and a serious no-go.
Brad Miller: On the downward spiral. Would make a nice third big man though if we could get him on the cheap. Fills the role of Will Purdue and Nasterovich.
Rasheed Wallace: He could fill the Robert Horry role as a defender and mouthbusting bad ass. If we can get him on the cheap, this is a definate go.
Marcus Camby: Could fill the role of Nazr but missing the energy of youth. If we can get him on the cheap he is a go. Like to have somebody younger.
Tyson Chandler: Ah, here is Nazr replacement, but doesn't seem as tough. If we can afford him, he is a go and a better pick than Camby.
Birdman: Would fill the role of a third big man, but absolutely not a starter. If we can get on the cheap, he is a go.
Anthony Carter: No.
Jamal Magloire: An Ok fill for Nazr. If we can afford him, he is a go.
Sheldon Williams: A nice third big man possibility. A gamble I would take.
Adonal Foyle: A poor man's shot blocking center. Lost behind Dwight Howard. He is a go.
Brandon Bass: Good roughneck if we can get on the cheap. Probably will be too expensive.
Splitter: We wil not sign him. Our recent record of dealing with players sucks. The dollar is extremely weak right now (Vegas is filled with Canadians and Japanese taking advantage of this..I was there during Christmas and have never seen so many foreigners there..a lady from Canada flat out told me what the situation is). This is a reach at very best. Had our chance, but flubbed it.
My rant on Pop, Peter and the organization will come another day, but there is the tale of the tape for today.
Final thought:
Ok, wrap your brains around this. Step back and look at history and the facts. The Lakers seem to win championships for a streak every decade or so. They hold a gun to somebody's head (Kobe trade), introduce a mole (Jerry West) or stuff Dominican bank accounts with huge wads of cash (Odom/Shaq). So, they are pre-destined to win championships and there is no way around that. But, they can not maintain that level of greatness for more than a couple years. Knowing that they are in a position of strength right now and for the next 2-3 years, do we want to start totally rebuilding to coincide with their decline?
2 recs |
31 comments
Comments
Okay, CC. A for effort. The whole mathematical formula to prove that this season’s team was worse thank 2005’s was more than suspect, even though I agree with your conclusions. There was also a lot of embellishment in the description of the 2005 scrubs, but hey.
I usually disagree with you, but this “recipe for greatness” wasn’t an easy task. I think it’s madness to actually attempt it, but kudos.
Straight from the No-Stat Zone to your computer!
Dunkin' Cheerleaders
by LatinD on May 4, 2009 9:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I love the 2005 Spurs. I think they are not only the best Spurs team ever made, but also top 3 on Teams of the Decade.
But oh lordy did you overrate some of their qualities.
Rasho Nestorvic being regarded as a roughneck in the post in hilarious! Do was as soft as a marshmellow. Could he block shots? Yes. Could he just stand there and be an absolute zero? Yes Yes.
The main core of that title team was Duncan, Ginobili, Horry, Bowen, Parker, Barry, and Mohammed. Those seven guys won the NBA title. The rest of the roster served their purpose and attributed to the 59 wins in the regular season. But ultimately you could have replaced them and still gotten the same result.
And the Lakers benefit from their location along with rich history. Nobody will allow the Lakers to suck for too long. Too much pride. The Spurs, if anything, should adopt that mentality. There is no reason for the Spurs to be a NBA bottom feeder for years on end.
by r21x on May 4, 2009 11:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the comments
Appreciate the kudos. I am not so great at picking out future talent (my horrible pick of Jay Williams as a great star shall go unmentioned), but I know a dud when I see one and I firmly believe in keeping with principals that I have outlined. I was completely dumbfounded when the Spurs signed Bonner and his $3 million contract. I almost couldn’t contain myself watching Pop throw grandfather Porter up against Kobe. Way back in the day, the Spurs signed Charles Smith (no, not the athletic young guy-the old Knick Charles Smith) and I just sat shaking my head. Going way way way back, I cried along with David Robinson when Rod Strickland was given away for Maurice Cheeks.
The minute you sign an assclown (Bonner-Tolbert), a freakshow (Bol, Muggsy Boges, Shawn Bradley) or a grandfather clock (Terry Porter-JV) and expect them to do anything, then you are treading into dangerous waters.
In any case, the Spurs got off track building the current team and the reason that it happened was very suspect. Again, I am writing a book on that one.
by Clintons Cigar on May 5, 2009 8:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Terry Porter was a great backup point for the Spurs. It would be great to have someone like him on the team again. Pop has been trying unsuccessfully to recreate that Porter magic, with terrible results (see Van Exel and Stoudamire). Porter was a very good outside shooter and freethrow shooter. Plus he protected the ball pretty well and was a smart defender.
JV has just been plain awful. TP is way beyond him.
I agree that Bonner has been a dud, but 3 million is barely anything on many of the NBA teams out there.
Charles “Spider” Smith was a free agent pickup that the Spurs got for nothing. He played some decent minutes and he was a very good defender.
"The evolution has been good, and I am much more tranquil now in the face of what comes next,"--Manu Ginobili
by VWolf on May 6, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Spurs traded Mo Cheeks to the Knicks for Rod Strickland. Cheeks was unhappy the first half of the season in SA, to the point where he refused to find a place to live, and stayed in a hotel the whole time. Strickland later left the Spurs as a free agent to go to Portland.
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
by tomasito on May 6, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That took me for a spin. I got lost in the layers thinking I was somehow on to Shrek & the mule (whatever his name was-eddie murphy). So i had to re-read it. Different & off-beat perspective. Are you crazy suggesting the greatest should take less “mula”. Gino is worth it!
by cojones2thewall on May 5, 2009 9:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
See, guys? Formatting is 500% of the appeal.
Straight from the No-Stat Zone to your computer!
Dunkin' Cheerleaders
by LatinD on May 5, 2009 10:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Couldn’t agree more about Bonner’s contract. They were competing against themselves to sign him to a multi-year deal. I also recall Porter looking like Grandpa Simpson when facing young Kobe lock down D. The good news is that served as a wake up call for Pop because the next season began the Tony Parker era. Hopefully Pop will have a similar approach to next year in regards to getting younger and more athletic.
One correction Maurice Cheeks was dealt for Rod Strickland not the other way around.
by Este on May 6, 2009 9:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think people in general under estimate San Antonio as a city. Yes, it can be lame, but the Spurs own the city. If I were to rank San Antonio sports followings it would be: Spurs > Cowboys > High School Football Team> College Football Team > other NFL Teams > MLB Teams > Rampage > MIssions > Silver Stars. If you’re a Spur, you get to play with TD and for Pop. I mean the city (and Robinson) helped convince Duncan to stay. I just don’t see Parker or Manu running off to play with a lame hack coach (or a different one every year) and being asked to carry scrubs to an 8th seed. Holt has shown a commitment to winning (and getting playoff money) so as long as he owns the Spurs, I think we can count on the organization doing what is necessary to win.
48MOH had a post earlier this year about TP’s career plan as he told it to a French paper. First sign an extension with the Spurs until 2016 then retire from the NBA. Go play a couple years for the French team he is in the process of owning and then retire from playing. He then wants to manage that team.
My point is that the Spurs don’t have that much trouble with players running off to other teams. Sean Elliot was crying himself to sleep in Detroit after we traded him. Manu and Parker won’t ever play for another NBA team. It is a possibility that TD or Manu would restructure a contract to enable the organization to bring in a new star if it keeps them competitive while they are still around.
Also as 48MoH has been writing, the Spurs can’t afford their first round draft picks every season without sending them to Europe or the D-league. Good point about the US dollar though.
by BlaseE on May 6, 2009 10:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t be so sure about Parker. I could see him becoming a Laker after his contract is up.
Pop has said he would retire when Duncan does. I don’t see why Tony would play for the Spurs without Pop, Duncan and Manu.
Also, Manu may or may not play for another organization but he is on the downside of his career. We won’t get too many years out of him regardless.
"The evolution has been good, and I am much more tranquil now in the face of what comes next,"--Manu Ginobili
by VWolf on May 6, 2009 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve been saying this for years. We should be VERY aware of this possibility, because Tony does reek of LA.
"If I was the kind of guy who posted a signature line, this would be it from now on." -SiMA
by SgtinManusArmy on May 6, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think some of the LA feel is media created. Once he and Eva hooked up, the media figured that since the team was great and had to be covered (even with the lower ratings) they might as well spice up the gossipy pop culture angle. And it worked. Meanwhile, us real basketball fans only cared about defense, rebounding and teamwork as we headed to another championship.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
by SpurredOn on May 6, 2009 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, plus Tony’s kindof a primadon’n, bright-lights-lovin, shitty rap-makin, attention-lovin dick. So there’s that too.
"If I was the kind of guy who posted a signature line, this would be it from now on." -SiMA
by SgtinManusArmy on May 6, 2009 7:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you saying that the rest of his body isn’t attention-lovin, because I’d have to disagree with that assessment
You’re better off trying to intimidate the sea. - LatinD
Free George Hill! (member #4)
by jollyrogerwilco on May 7, 2009 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll concede that placing the “attention-lovin” modifier so close to the label provided some interesting images and misunderstandings.
Thank you, JRW. You win this round.
"If I was the kind of guy who posted a signature line, this would be it from now on." -SiMA
by SgtinManusArmy on May 7, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You shut your mouth when talking about Tony.
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed.
by CMoney on May 7, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got to meet Tony about a year ago and trust me, he loves himself quite a bit. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a SPUR and I’d take a bullet for him (and I’m not so dim to EVER suggest we part ways with him), but he doesn’t fit the mold of humility and modesty that DRob, Elliot, Tim and Manu have set. And when I think of the need for attention and the craving of accolades, I immediately think of LA.
That’s all I’m saying.
"If I was the kind of guy who posted a signature line, this would be it from now on." -SiMA
by SgtinManusArmy on May 7, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s funny, when I think of LA, I think “cheap-shot artists.”
by 4Him on May 7, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And whiners
But maybe that’s because of Phil.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
by SpurredOn on May 8, 2009 3:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do think that Tony is a bit outside the mold of a typical Spur, but when he was having his historic scoring night (tied playoff high with Gervin) they asked him at half-time about it, and he instantly said all that matters is that they win the game. He did not want to talk about his great performance, not even a bit. Most NBA players would not have done that.
"The evolution has been good, and I am much more tranquil now in the face of what comes next,"--Manu Ginobili
by VWolf on May 8, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The final Exhibit in my point-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WuEJX3Ty9s
"If I was the kind of guy who posted a signature line, this would be it from now on." -SiMA
by SgtinManusArmy on May 9, 2009 2:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t sell Tony short, SiMA. I don’t think he’s anywhere near being finished making bad rap videos.
“Hello, my name is Tony Parker” indeed!
You’re better off trying to intimidate the sea. - LatinD
Free George Hill! (member #4)
by jollyrogerwilco on May 9, 2009 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
dear christ that was painful to watch.
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed.
by CMoney on May 11, 2009 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Desperate Housewives is on ABC. National games are typically on ABC or ESPN and occasionally TNT. Obviously ABC/ESPN are going to mention her every game. They are probably under contract to. Eva may prefer San Antonio to the pretension of LA. Tony may not do HEB commercials but Eva has those HEB reusable bags she “designed”.
by BlaseE on May 7, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great point about the DHW connection with ABC/ESPN. I didn’t think about that and you are correct: once you get to the second round, our games were mostly on those networks as we were the top team and playing the Suns in the highlight series. The Finals are all on ABC.
You gotta bring ass to get ass.
by SpurredOn on May 7, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with getting some of the above mention FA talent is that the only way to get them is if it was for “cheap”. I don’t know exactly how much you consider “cheap”, but I have yet to see a decent FA go to another team for below market value. Those players that do go for the “cheap” contracts are usually old vets looking for their last paychecks or coming off serious injuries.
We will not get any FA for “cheap” Miller / Wallace / Camby / Gordon, etc.
by D1g1tal J1m on May 6, 2009 11:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep, I agree. Getting Wallace on the cheap would be using the full MLE on him. Camby will probably command more than that.
"The evolution has been good, and I am much more tranquil now in the face of what comes next,"--Manu Ginobili
by VWolf on May 6, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely agree, but with the cap decreasing for the first time in so many years (or ever?) isn’t the NBA creating a tough market for free agents? Just seems like more teams clearing space than taking guys on. I think this also combines with team’s aspirations in the FA market of 2010 and wanting as many players off the books after next season. I think it could prove an interesting offseason due to these factors.
by BlaseE on May 6, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, maybe I do have the Rod Strickland trade backwards. I just remember being shocked when he wasn’t there. When paired with Robinson, they made a formidable duo and the fast breaks seem to always end with a slam or crazy layup.
I am of course really stretching it on my hopes for a big guy. I know all the cap issues and it is not good. Next year is when we can clear some huge cap space. I have been checking out some NBA salaries and it is nuts what some people are getting. Also, there are a lot of players out there that are going to get huge raises in a season or two, so you will see a whole lot of second tier players moving around and some teams having to make some real tough decisions, including the Lakers.
by Clintons Cigar on May 6, 2009 7:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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