It's time to trade Manu
by CMoney on Apr 6, 2009 11:39 PM CDT
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PrintA few years ago, my father took me to a Rangers baseball game for opening day. It was a beautiful spring day. A day in which I was supposed to be in school and my father was supposed to be working. In fact, I’m pretty sure 50,000 people called in sick to work that day. I remember the crisp blue sky and the green sea of grass like it was yesterday. The fresh cut was in the air; along with the smell of hot dogs, peanuts and popcorn. You could hear the buzz of the stadium, the crackle of people walking on discarded peanut shells, and the ever so sweet crack of a bat. It was a perfect day for baseball. We sat in our seats and joked about how the Rangers were, for once, tied for first place. I remember mentioning to my dad, “It would be sweet if we could catch a foul ball. ” He said with a smile, “If one comes near, we’ll get it.” Four and a half innings in and it finally happened. A foul ball was hit directly to us. It landed in our row, three seats away from my dad. I yelled, “Get it!” and watched as my dad made a break for it. Except, he wasn’t quite as fast as I had once remembered. He struggled to get out of his chair and came up empty handed. This punk kid had jumped down two rows and snatched it at the very last second. I will always remember the look in my dad’s eyes as he turned around to come back to his seat. I looked at him, and he looked back at me with a hint of embarrassment. “I’m slow”. Those two words hit me like a freight train. My dad, who had always been invincible in my eyes, was now on the decline. In that moment, I realized that my dad was getting older. I hated the thought of it. It was as if storm clouds had rolled in on our perfect day.
As I write this, the shockwave of Ginobili’s loss is rippling through Spurs nation. There’s no easy way to stomach it. No way to spin it and no use in denying it. This loss hurts. Bad. Today, I was reminded of how I felt on opening day years ago. Our team is getting older; our team is breaking down. All the signs are there. We all watched as age crept up on the Admiral. We joked as it finally caught up to Robert Horry. And this year we’ve seen firsthand how age has affected our foundation. Tim has been hobbled by tendonitis in his knees. For Duncan to actually admit how much his knees are bothering him speaks volumes. I cringe just watching him handle the ball in the post and the sight of him with those blue knee braces leaves me with an empty feeling in my gut. And then there’s Manu. Our human crash test dummy is finally falling victim to the night in and night out beatings his body has taken. It’s like watching your favorite pet slowdown in their latter years. You lie to yourself and try not to think about it. But the reality is there. His ankles are giving out on him. His wheels are wearing thin. Rehabilitation now takes longer and he’s a greater risk to himself every time he takes the floor. Now most players learn how to adapt their game to better suit their lack of mobility. Like Finley, they become jump shooters. This is what Manu will eventually be reduced to. I fear we will never see the same Manu again. It’s been an entire year and the only change in Manu’s ankle problems has been from the left to the right. Go ahead and ask Kurt Thomas how much ankle injuries will change your game.
At the start of next season, Manu will be 32 years old, entering into his 14th year as a professional. He’s will also be in the last year of his contract. As much as it kills me to say it, I feel that our FO needs to trade Ginobili while we can. He’s not getting any younger and his best days are four years behind him. We need some promising young talent to carry the torch into the 10’s. I’m sure I’m going to cause a shit storm by even suggesting this but before you send me to the guillotine or BAN me from PTR, think about the possibilities. One that comes to mind is a trade for another young talented player in his final year of his contract… say … Chris Bosh? A 6-10’, 230 lbs, 25 year-old power forward who’s been a double-double machine over the past month and who on multiple occasions has publicly stated that he will not resign with the Raptors. Forget the fact that he’s from Texas and that’s where his family is located. Instead focus on him having the opportunity to finally play with a contender. How do you pass up playing alongside Tim Duncan and learning from the best? Humor me and think about the possibility of trading Manu, (Bowen or Fab) and the rights to Tiago Splitter for Chris Bosh and trash (Maybe Pops-Mensu?). Seriously, something like this is not that far fetched and is very plausible. If you don’t believe me please check it out for yourself. http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
The option of trading Manu has to be on the table. You can hate me for saying it, but it’s time.
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BANNED!!!
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Apr 6, 2009 11:44 PM CDT reply actions
Seriously, well written. My two cents.
Penny 1: I’m not sure Manu has much trade value with this injury and his age.
Penny 2: Manu’s best regular season was last year. Not 4 years ago. Just last year he was tearing it up in the league. He’s not THAT far past his best days.
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Apr 6, 2009 11:47 PM CDT reply actions
Penny 1: Well it depends on the team. A team like Toronto would kill to have a player like Manu coupled with the rights to Tiago. I really can’t see them passing that up when they’re only going to lose Bosh to unrestricted FA if they don’t move him.
Penny 2: Manu’s best days we’re in the 05’. Look at what he did that season/ post season. Not saying he hasn’t been a baller since, he’s just on a natural decline.
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed.
You crazy. For the regular season at least.
YR TM G GS MIN FG FG% 3P 3P% FT FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS
04-05 SAS 74 74 29.6 5.0-10.5 .471 1.3-3.5 .376 4.8-6.0 .803 1.6 0.4 2.3 2.6 1.0 3.4 4.4 3.9 16.0
05-06 SAS 65 56 27.9 4.8-10.3 .462 1.3-3.3 .382 4.3-5.5 .778 1.6 0.4 1.9 2.4 0.7 2.9 3.5 3.6 15.1
06-07 SAS 75 36 27.5 5.3-11.4 .464 1.7-4.3 .396 4.3-5.0 .860 1.5 0.4 2.1 2.1 0.8 3.6 4.4 3.5 16.5
07-08 SAS 74 23 31.0 6.1-13.3 .460 2.1-5.3 .401 5.1-6.0 .860 1.5 0.4 2.7 2.3 0.9 3.9 4.8 4.5 19.5
Best scoring average. Best assists. Best rebounds.
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Apr 7, 2009 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Touche. I guess the memory of the 05’ playoffs left me thinking his 05’ season was just as spectacular. Hell, these stats make it even more appealing for a team to trade for Manu. You do realize you totally disrespected your signature by posting this, don’t you?
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed.
Well, I like stats when they support my point. If you had posted them, I would have ignored them completely.
We specialize in misinformation around here. Facts and stats just get in the way.
by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Apr 7, 2009 12:34 AM CDT up reply actions
I think he was at his best in 05 as well. Last year his stats were better during the season but he also had so much more of the offense going through him and plays being called for him. If Pop wasn’t Mr Iron Fist then his regular season stats could have been the same or better than last years for the previous 3 or 4. Either way though he did in fact have a superb year just last season so next year it’s not like we can expect him to become Anthony Johnson out there-Manu will still be productive and hopefully explosive with this long rest. I was telling my nephews though, I think next year is his last good year. we can’t expect him to produce at age 33 with the type of torture he puts his body through durring games. If most guards lose it at 35 we should expect him to lose it at 33. :::tear:::
by speedostuffer on Apr 7, 2009 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions
NO. NO. NO.
He’s the heart and soul of our team. I don’t care if he ends up throwing 3 bombs for the remainder of his career. He will retire a Spur. He’s done too much for this organization to be traded.
And that’s all I’m saying or I will be banned.
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed. - CMoney
speed racer!
kevin martin kevin martin kevin martin kevin martin kevin martin kevin martin!
KEVIN MARTIN!!!
by sleep research facility on Apr 7, 2009 12:55 AM CDT reply actions
You’re dead to me.
Trading Manu for squat while he’s injured is exactly the opposite of what the Spurs FO would do.
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By the way, if Manu’s tradeable, why not Timmy? His tendonosis won’t get better, and we could get a quality big for him. Hmm? Hmmmm?
Heresy.
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You don't trade Tim
Because Tim is the franchise and he’s not in the last year of his contract. Manu is a coveted play by many teams. To say that a player like Chris Bosh, who brings 20 pts a night, 10+ rebounds, youth and another All Star big, is “squat” is just foolish. I know you’re sensitive because he’s your homeland boy but you have to look big picture here.
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed.
I just don’t share the philosophy of trading players who have done so much for a team. I’ve talked about this before, and I’d feel the same way if people wanted to trade Tony. That’s not how I view sports, that’s all.
I honestly doubt Toronto would trade Bosh. Regardless of the rocky year, they’ve always shown signs of wanting him to be the franchise. He’ll ask for top money in his next contract, and whoever’s willing to give it to him will be foolish. And I imagine that if they wanted to trade him they’d be looking for equal value, as in a player capable of carrying them to an NBA final. An injured Manu’s not that player.
Bosh is not Duncan. If the Spurs could choose, they should get a true center, like Jefferson.
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I can respect that. I’m a fan but I also realize that basketball is a business. And just like in every business there comes a time when the older, more expensive employees are phased out for younger, cheaper talent. Manu can still play at a high level of basketball. He still holds trade value and if there was a time to do it, it’s now. Manu can be that bridge that will bring in the younger talent so we can ensure that we’ll still be contenders for years to come. Imagine how we’ll feel if in 3 years from now, the Spurs are fighting for the 8th seed and Manu is reduced to throwing up 3 pointers. Awesome. If we have any hopes of extending Tim’s career then we need to remain championship contenders year after year.
And believe me, I’m fully aware that Bosh is not Duncan. There is only one Tim Duncan.
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed.
I understand the FO treating it as a business, but not the fans. The team is as much the guys wearing the jerseys as the “Spurs” logo and the stadium. Ah well, my take on it, and tomasito said it better further down.
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I LOVE MANY AND ALL BUT!!!
does anyone else think that Manu owes the Spurs 3 championships!
1 for the Nowitzki fowl, 1 for being injured last year, 1 for going to the olympics ang getting injured. 3 RINGS!
it’s COOL Manu U still the MAN
P.S, I think Manu is reading our post especially now. U DA MAN MANU!
You got it backwards. The spurs owe three of their four rings to Manu. 1 for being the spark off the bench and defensive menace that no one in the league had seen before. 1 for being the defacto MVP. And 1 for being simply erotic.
by speedostuffer on Apr 13, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions
What can you expect to get back for him?
As you mentioned he’s 32, been a pro for 14 years, has had recent surgery and may need more…youre not going to get anything of value for him, so we might as well resign him and hope he can adapt to his new, well old, body.
Again, this shines the light on the Spurs drafting strategy, enough with the euros who never come over. This team needs an influx of youth, we’re seeing it with Hill, now imagine had they not wasted picks on Splitter, Javtokas etc etc.
I get the feeling the FO isnt really preparing very well for the post Duncan/GInobili era.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
Fact: If Toronto doesn’t trade C.Bosh, they will lose him to FA next year because he has stated that he won’t resign.
The vaule that Toronto would receive in the trade would be 1. Manu 2. The rights to sign Tiago Splitter to replace Bosh. For a team who’s about to lose Bosh to FA next year anyway, how could you pass this up?
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed.
Right, but thats not a good deal for the Raptors
Because
A- Manus age and injury history, he’s on the decline, theres no debating that
B- Splitter is making too much money in Spain to come here, he’s subject to the rookie wage scale, so there is little financial benefit for him to come while he’s under contract with Tau.
C- Bosh is a perennial All-Star, so they could do far better than an aging star and a guy who might not even be as good as Hansbrough.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
+1
When bren is right, bren is right.
…and bren is right.
by SpuroftheMoment on Apr 7, 2009 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
haha
Cant tell if thats sarcasm or not, but you cant be sure how Splitters game will translate to the NBA, if and when he ever makes the leap, but Id rather the Spurs be the team to find that out.
Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.
At this point in time...
The best deal I think you’d get for Manu would be Jamal Crawford.
Poor Man's GM @ jacemannba.blogspot.com
Listen
I understand this thought, but it’s simply not realistic. Manu’s value is to the Spurs. Many other teams might want him, but they are not going to give up what the Spurs would want/need in return. Just not going to happen.
It's hard to do something like this...
I understand that Manu is rather injury prone, but I don’t think this is the solution. I’d rather run the risk of another unhealthy season of Manu and then maybe letting him go in FA or signing him as an improved Michael Finley for cheaper than have him burn us next season and the one after on some other team.
Poor Man's GM @ jacemannba.blogspot.com
It is an interesting problem with his contract expiring and all. I figure the Spurs would have to have a losing season or two before the fans would STAND for them trading Manu.
For example, could you have imagined a couple of years ago the Suns parting with their darling 2 time MVP wonderboy Steve Nash? There would have been riots in the snow bird RV camps. The last couple of seasons have made it much more likely Nash leaves. (Btw I’m not equating Manu to Nash.)
And while it always depends on who they would get for him I think the only way Manu goes is if he wants to go. I think the Spurs would do best to take their chances on him getting back healthy and let him live out his basketball days as an honored Spur.
That said, perhaps the Blazers would consider bringing him in as a veteran presence they’ll need to go far in the playoffs. Maybe the Spurs could get some youngsters – like LeMarcus Aldridge & others – who could learn more from Tim than Bosh.
Exactly. Bosh may not be the answer but that doesn’t mean there isn’t another situation that would work. The point I’m trying to make is that we need to strongly consider trading Manu for young talented players that will carry us into the 10’s. I want our team to be title contenders every year.
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed.
+1
We definately need to get younger and make some moves. I’m not taking a stance one way or the other on whether or not to trade Manu, but I also would not completely rule out the possibility if the deal is weet enough. There would be strong conditions though. One of them being that we get a Spur in return. No bad attitudes, no headaches. Do I want the Spurs to have their cake and eat it too? Yes. The thought of the Spurs not being contenders is disheartening.
http://myspace.com/eme0916
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/profile.php?id=569220294&ref=profile
The rough part is that the only way the Spurs get suitable value is if Manu comes back and starts next season great for at least a couple of months. But if he does that no Spurs fans will want to trade him.
Anyway, it’ll be interesting to see what happens.
in your dreams
not only would adding yet another sg make no sense for the blazers, who already have roy and rudy at that position, but we would be trading a piece of our core for a 32 year old Ginobili who’s been injured half this season. Consider a sg swap, Rudy Fernandez for Manu Ginobili. That would make sense for both sides, because you would be trading Manu who is arguably better right now for Rudy who is not as good but is also just starting to enter his prime. That would give us our veteran presence, and would make your rebuilding process easier. There is no way we would trade bigs for 2 guards though given that the 2 is our strongest position (besides center).
I’m deeply ambivalent about this. On the one hand, trading Manu for younger talent could help bridge the gap to the next generation of Spurs. On the other hand, trading Manu means the Spurs would no longer be “the Spurs” in some small but real way.
To put it another way, let’s say that the Spurs could trade TD, Tony, and Manu for, I dunno, Kevin Durant, Al Jefferson, and Chris Paul (or some other triumvirate of young non-Spur talent). They would certainly be better positioned for the future, but would you cheer for them with the same intensity? Would they be your team? At that point, you’re just cheering for the uniforms the players are wearing (rooting for laundry, as the saying goes).
I’ve started to wonder how much I’ll support the Spurs when the curtains finally close on this current group. I loved the Spurs as a kid, because I grew up in San Antonio and that’s what kids do. Then came Big Dave and Sean Elliott and Avery Johnson, and eventually Tim joined that crew. Some guys fell by the wayside here and there, but Timmy and Big Dave and Malik bridged the gap to the current TD-Bowen-Manu-TP crew.
What about in five years’ time, when only Tony Parker and some combo of Malik Hairston, James Gist, Tiago Splitter, and George Hill are carrying the Spurs banner? Will I support that team? Honestly, I was a Robinson fan, then a Duncan fan, and then a Manu fan. I haven’t really “fallen” for Tony the way I did those other guys. I don’t live in San Antonio anymore, so I wouldn’t get caught up in the excitement of the city if a new group of guys start making some noise after the inevitable post TD down years.
I guess what I’m saying is that I selfishly want to keep cheering for THIS team as long as possible. I don’t want to give up Manu or Timmy’s last productive years in exchange for someone I have no attachment to, even if that’s not the best strategic course of action for the Spurs. At this point, I’m hoping for just one more playoff run with the Big 3 at full strength, one last hurrah. I say keep ‘em together, add a ring-scavenging vet like Rasheed, and let’s saddle up for one more ride before the Spurs as we know them ride off into the sunset.
Now all we need is a little Energon... and a lot of luck.
by tomasito on Apr 7, 2009 12:18 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
I love you, tomasito, you’re really a person after my own heart. From now in you do all the talking and I’ll just nod along.
I would love to cheer for the next generation Spurs, but I want it to be a classy transition, where the old players help in what they can, and the new players start getting the spotlight. That’s my ideal scenario, and I hope I’ll get to enjoy it.
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just wonderin'
So Latin D, let’s say the Spurs traded Manu to the Cavs for Anderson Verajao and Delonte West (or you pick really, anybody but LeBron though) would you be more of a Spurs fan or a Cavs fan?
Either answer is OK with me. Like I said I was just wonderin’.
by olf on Apr 7, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
That’s not really a fair question…
Let me put it to you this way… are you any less a Sean Elliott fan because he spent a year in Detroit? Did you start disliking Malik when he was traded to the Knicks?
Would you still be a David Robinson fan if he had been traded in the twilight of his career?
The answer is pretty clear to me.
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed. - CMoney
Then I withdraw the question. (Not trying to be a jerk or anything.)
by olf on Apr 7, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks, bell, but I don’t mind answering. I’ve picked my team, and I’ll stick with the Spurs even if Manu’s gone. That said, I’d root for the Cavs with a deep passion while Manu played for them, and a Spurs/Cavs Final game would be a win-win situation for me.
Hope I didn’t let someone down with my answer, but hey. :)
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Thanks for the answer LD.
I figured local Spurs fans would always have a soft spot for Manu no matter where he plays (unless it is in a Suns uni. or something. :-)
I was really asking in the sense that Manu is almost an Argentine national hero based on his work on the national team (as I understand it). And I just like I expect the Rockets will have fewer Chinese national fans once Yao retires or moves on, I was wondering about the Spurs.
by olf on Apr 7, 2009 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Although, on the bright side, you and your sig are now world famous:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-37/Without-Manu—Spurs-Fans-React.html
Now all we need is a little Energon... and a lot of luck.
Please he’s had that signature for 3+ years. I take it on two weeks ago and it goes nation wide.
You’re welcome, C! ;-P
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed. - CMoney
I will be the first to admit that you have taken my sig to new heights. Together, we can go places Bella.
Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed.
Well put
I love the passion for the Spurs. I am a lover of sports. I love football, basketball, baseball, hockey, soccer and darn near everything else. That being said, I think the Spurs are my favorite team, for all the reason Latin D and Tomasito have said, but also because of the class of player and organization. I will be heart broken if the next generation of Spurs do not have the same class and character as the last few have had. Great read all, it’s very good to know that we all love this team for at least some of the same good reasons.
Manu out NO WAY, thats not HIS WAY, nope not yet
I don’t know what the new spurs trend is with recent losses but it’s not all on Manu. Whatever it is, I hope it’s short lived. Take Ginko or double shot espresso I dont care just get back to it. I dont question Manu being traded but perhaps their orthopedic connection needs to be traded. MRI & CT should of been done before he started cross training back to health and during his training to ensure proper healing and naturally it should have been a slower resume not “balls out” regardless of your age. I am confident the Spurs (and Manu) will execute the fundamentals of putting the round thing in that stringy thing. Go SPURS.
Off topic...
Sox and Hawks fan? From Chi-town?
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I actually agree with you
and he’s my favorite Spur of all-time (other than maybe Gervin). he still has a lot of value. This way he’s able to get us something other than getting himself injured. That sounds harsh but it’s true.
V- "I'm not questioning your powers of observation. I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."
Everything you say is true CMoney. Its a business too.
Even with all that, the reason I became a Spurs fan starts with DRob. So I like to think the FO places some importance on loyalty, heart, commitment etc even while considering mucho dinero. Its a judgement call to say the least, but based on what Manu has given of himself to the team, trade shouldn’t be an option in my books. He should be allowed to retire or go onto his next option with grace with Manu choosing his departure method. It would only be right.
Manu is irreplaceable, even Pop once said that the team is great with Duncan & Parker but it’s Manu that makes it a championship team. I still think that he still has much left in him, I bet if he’s with the lakers last year and he’s healthy lakers would have won the championship even without Bynum, that’s how big a difference maker he is. And the only game we won in the WC finals last year was when Ginobili was Ginobili. Bosh is great but if he has Manu’s competetivenes, he won’t let his team fall off the play-offs that easy. Manu is a Spur so is Duncan, and Parker. You don’t trade them, you retire them as a spur and hang their jerseys in the stadium.
This is a silly post, no offense CMoney, and worthy of Spurstalk. He’s not going to be traded. We’d never get anything approaching equal value for him. It’s just not going to happen. It’s a catch-22 situation. If Manu is playing well then he’d be too valuable to trade. If he’s hurt, no one would take the risk to trade for him and give up something good for possibly damaged goods.
"Like feel or follow or fuck" she said...
Worthy of Spurstalk. Now thats big insult.
CMoney wrote a good coherent article. That Spurstalk place is crazy with fans, who unlike the team they follow, ain’t over themselves. Kinda ironic lol.
Oh btw, i am just kidding and making small talk. Mainly wanted to raise that point about you being right about the level of Spurstalk…with so many ardent fans, that place is mostly disappointing.
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