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The Problem with the Spurs

The Spurs were immediately placed on my mental back burner the minute I finished writing the recap of game 5 against the Lakers.  After coming back from Italy I found myself with what I believe is called “free time,” and my mind drifted back to the fact that the Spurs haven’t been quite right since the 05-06 season, the year of the infamous Manu Ginobili foul.  We all remember that moment and, thanks to Gregg Popovich, we know that if it weren’t for that foul the Spurs would have repeated as champions and gas would still be less than $2 per gallon.  The nagging question looping the recesses of my brain was how to illustrate exactly what is wrong the Spurs… and it came to me.  Not all of the sudden.  Not in a flash of light.  I was thinking about something I wrote in my journal (shut up) while in Italy

"There’s a wasted life in the difference between striving for perfection and accepting nothing less."

The lesser point of that statement is that a small change in wording, thinking or acting can have big repercussions.

****

Do you agree with the following statement?

 The Spurs lost the WCF because Manu Ginobili was hurt.

I have a feeling most Spurs fans and Spurs management would agree with that statement.  That agreement is a symptom of the disease plaguing the Spurs.  The problem is not that the statement is false; the problem is what it implies.  It implies, similarly to Popovich’s numerous statements about the ’06 Dallas series, that the Spurs would have won if it not for one bad break.  That leads to the conclusion that there was only one variable controlling the Spurs fate; one flip of the coin.  It’s saying the odds of coming up heads four times in a row is one out of two, because you’re assuming the first three events turned in your favor.  The reality is that the Spurs lost to the Lakers because any one of the following four things happened:

  1. Tim Duncan was less than 90%.
  2. Manu Ginobili was less than 90%.
  3. Tony Parker was less than 80%.
  4. Bruce Bowen was less than 90%.

Any one of these events would have led to a Spurs loss against the Lakers (to argue otherwise is sheer ignorant idyllic idiocy).  The Ginobili injury just happened to be the obvious flip of the coin that turned up tails.

You could take any NBA championship contender and pick one player they could not win without.  The Lakers have Kobe, New Orleans has Paul, the Celts have Pierce, etc.  But could you pick four different lynch-pins for any of those teams?  You can’t.  The Lakers were without Bynum and made it to the finals.  Ray Allen played horrifically against the Cavaliers and the Pistons and Boston still came out victorious.

The Spurs did not lose because Manu Ginobili got hurt.  The Spurs lost because any of four different, independent events happened.  They had zero margin for random events, and this is entirely the fault of management.

****

The Spurs mistake has been their focus on finding “veteran role-players.”  Every player addition has been evaluated in the context of the Big Three and “fitting into the scheme.”  You may be thinking “Wait a second, that’s how it’s supposed to be done.”  Really?  Look at what that got us:

Michael Finley
Brent Barry
Bruce Bowen
Ime Udoka
Fabricio Oberto
Matt Bonner
Kurt Thomas
Jacque Vaughn
Robert Horry

Look at those guys a group.  Remove the context of Duncan, Ginobili and Parker.  Pretend you’re starting a team with those nine guys.  Who has a one on one game?  Who can penetrate?  Who has a post game?  Who do you run the offense through?  Who rebounds?  Who’s the interior presence?  Now pick any other team in the NBA, and look at their worst nine players.  Try to find a group worse than the Spurs.  It’s impossible to do amongst the playoff teams, and amongst non-playoff teams there are few, if any, obvious choices.

The supporting cast surrounding the Big Three is atrocious.  To say otherwise requires one to focus solely on how good they look playing next to Tim, Manu and Tony.  That futility and stupidity of that narrow-minded focus is laid bare by the realization of what, apparently, is a secret:

Every one looks good playing next to the Big Three.  (Except the Collective Detritus that is Robert Horry.)  They are by far the least selfish core in the NBA.  They play both ends of the court.  They say the right things.  They don’t show up their teammates or coach on the court or to the media.  They can create their own shot and create shots for others. 

Their diverse abilities, along with Pop’s stubbornness and his refusal to put with mistakes made by someone under the age of 30, have led to a focus on finding the smallest of pieces.  They have acquired players who “play the right way” or “play hard-nosed defense” or “do all the little things.”  When, instead, they should have simply gone after “good” players who, when called upon, can attempt to do the “bigger things” that have to be done when Manu / Tim / Tony gets dinged or the likes of Ray Allen has a bad stretch of games.

****

What frustrates me most about Spurs fans is that they evaluate the management in the same way they evaluate the players. 

In some respects I can understand refusing to admit just how horrible Michael Finley has become; pretty much all of us wanted to be an NBA player at one time or another.  Idolization of athletes, and ignoring their failures and faults, is no new thing.  (Not to mention criticism of any kind is getting discouraged more and more in every aspect of media.)  We look at the success of the Spurs, and we attribute some of the credit for that success to each member of the team.  We believe a team is a sum of its parts, but we ignore that some of those parts can be negative.  In the context of the Big Three, Michael Finley is a winner.  In the context of an average NBA team, he’s a waste of minutes.

What surprises me is that Spurs fans so willingly apply the same context to Spurs management.  The Spurs have won three titles in six years, so Pop must be a great coach and Buford must be a genius.  Give me a break.  I’m not saying Pop is a bad coach, but he’s been blessed with Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker.  Have the Spurs ever won a title they shouldn’t have?  Have they ever beaten a clearly superior team?  Have they ever pulled an upset?  Have they ever won when any of the Big Three suffered even the most minor of injuries?  Have the Spurs developed a single young player other than Tony Parker?  How hard is it to have a great defensive team when you have Tim Duncan guarding the basket?

Buford and Pop should be run up the freaking flag pole for their performance this past year.  Pop dicked around with lineups / game plans / time out calling / substitution patterns all year, openly admitting he didn’t care about home court advantage.  Well, hmm, that might have come in handy against New Orleans.  Maybe that series wouldn’t have gone 7 games.  Or maybe when the plane couldn’t take off after game 7 the Spurs could have driven home and slept in their beds.  Am I blaming Pop for a plane malfunction?  No.  I’m blaming him for ignoring the precariousness of the Spurs chances and undervaluing home court advantage for a group of old, slow players.

Pop spent the first 50+ games of the season with the JV as his backup.  Stoudemire is acquired, given 15 games and then essentially kicked to the curb.  The playoffs arrive and, wow, what a shocker, the JV is a total zero on offense, to the point Barry is thrust into PG duty despite having played about 5 minutes there all year.  Do I blame Pop for the JV sucking?  No.  I blame him for ignoring the suckage and therefore not playing Barry / Ginobili as the backup PG all year.

(And that, my friends, is the short list of Pop's blunders.)

Buford hasn’t been any better.  We haven’t drafted a useful player since Beno.  Scola was given away when he’d clearly be the second best big man on the Spurs.  Butler, Elson and Bonner contributed nothing to very little.

****

I see little reason to hope the Spurs will be any better next year.  That is not to say the Spurs won’t be good enough.  They’ll just be in the same position as 07-08:  helpless if anything goes wrong.  The writing, after all, is on the wall:

"The ‘getting younger’ thing is overblown," Popovich added. "If we knew Manu would stay healthy, Timmy (Duncan) would stay healthy and Tony (Parker) would stay healthy, we’d bring back the same doggone team. And if any of those guys are not healthy, we’re not going to win a championship anyway."

 Translation?  Three studs and a bunch of suck.

2 recs  |  Comment 61 comments

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Atta boy Matt, good post.

Maybe row-jah will begin a new era of non suckage Spurs benches (wishful thinking)

www.sportzchat.com

by Linix129 on Jul 13, 2008 11:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I’ve always felt that it was rather stupid to blame the players for their physical shortcomings. I mean, it’s not their fault they suck. They’re trying. (Except for Robert Horry, who almost never tries).

The point Matthew brought up about the back nine of our roster is interesting. Indeed they be among the worst in the NBA. What I think is more relevant though is that A) they’ve got to be among the cheapest as well, if you don’t count that huge balloon payment Cuban was paying Finley and B) they’re definitely the oldest.

The Spurs FO has done everything ass backward for a few years now. Your role players, your bench, these are supposed to be young guys, or at least a decent mix of young and old. Since they’re counted on to bring energy, it is implied that they have to be youthful. Your best players have to be veterans, guys who’ve been around and presumably, have experience playing with each other. For some time now, the youngest guys in the Spurs rotation have also been their best players. They’re still 30 and 31, but since they’re the youngest guys on the roster, it seems easy to think the carnival ride can go on for ever, because we don’t compare them to other guys in their prime, we compare them to their ancient teammates. 31 is young compared to 37, we think. What we don’t realize is that if Tim was 37 and Horry 31, Tim would still kick his ass whenever he wanted.

All the blame, ALL THE BLAME, has to go on Pop and the FO. Yes, the salary cap restricts them somewhat, but last I checked, Scola isn’t making a king’s ransom for the Rockets. Other teams are unearthing young cheap gems at power forward like Bass and Landry and Millsap or on the wings in Azuibuike and Ellis while we’ve treated the draft as an annoyance more than anything else.

Look at Pop’s background. First the military, then some shit-ass small college in Pomona-Pitzer. All the guy knows and understands is discipline and coaching untalented stiffs. He can watch guys miss shots all day and and all night and never create anything remotely resembling a scoring chance for themselves. All he cares about them is not blowing any mental assignments.

I think Pop feels incredibly uncomfortable having too many talented players – especially offensively – on his team. I think his view is talented players are selfish by nature and having too many of them is counterproductive. I think he just wants three guys who can create their own shot and a bunch of shooters who can defend first and don’t demand the ball. What doomed the Spurs in ‘07-08 was that the shooters stopped making shots, one of the shot makers/creators had a bum ankle and the age caught up with them in defense and rebounding.

The man clearly doesn’t feel comfortable with young players. Young players make mental mistakes. Young players don’t have the trust of the veterans. They don’t know how to handle the media, the pressure, slumps. They don’t know when they’re supposed to shoot and when they’re not. They have no clue what the hell they’re doing in his complex defensive schemes. They don’t know when he’s screaming at them that he’s trying to make them better.

He likes coaching the Europeans. They don’t talk back and they’re open to criticism and coaching. He likes coaching old veterans who’ve been around. He knows they came here to win championships and have checked their egos at the door (you don’t come to the Spurs for the money or the nightlife). The youngsters? He doesn’t know what to expect and more often than not, he’s not patient enough to find out.

Maybe, for all his defiance and bluster, Pop watched enough tape or got enough input from those around him he trusts to try something different this offseason. Barry is gone. It doesn’t appear that Horry or Finley will be back. Three American rookies were drafted and are being talked up. Mahinmi should be ready to join the rotation. A relatively young free agent wing player was signed. Supposedly, they’re still looking to add another piece.

Perhaps Pop didn’t want to change a thing and really meant it when he said that the team that won a title in ‘07 deserved a chance to defend it. After all, they did go 16-4 in the playoffs. Now that they didn’t win though, the pressure for status quo is gone and the expectations of the media and fans are different. Now if you don’t make changes it looks bad.

Pop relied too much on his big three last year, particularly Manu, and he knows it. He’ll need to get this group through the regular season healthy and he’ll need youthful legs and energy and enthusiasm to get through the dog days. Again, he won’t care about seedings, as long as everyone is healthy and playing well the last month. The team will suffer growing pains and lose a few it shouldn’t do to the big three not playing as many minutes in some nip and tuck contest as their counterparts on lesser teams.

It will be a gamble, as Matthew says, but the hardest part will be just making it into the playoffs healthy. If they can somehow manage that, they have as good a chance as anyone, regardless of home court. The big three are just that good when they’re on. There hasn’t been a third player on a team as good as Tony since the Celtics or Lakers in the 80’s. There hasn’t been a 2nd banana like Manu since Pip (uh, no, Pierce doesn’t count, KG is the second banana on that team).

Does it sound lucky? Unfair? Lazy? Spoiled? Yeah, sure, it’s all those things. But would you rather not have the guys on the team because they’re so good? We need to count our blessings there. I think the team has a great chance to be better next season just because Horry and Finley (and Elson) won’t be on it. Hill cannot be any worse than Vaughn, on either end of the floor. Mason will occasionally make a shot or dunk the basketball. Mahinmi will grab some boards and block some shots on his way to fouling out in 10 minutes.

My #1 concern isn’t the roster so much as it’s Pop’s potential inability to coach it. He’ll need to have patience and understanding and trust. You can’t bitch out Mason for taking a contested shot when you encouraged Finley to take them for three years. You can’t pull Hill for missing a ten footer because Vaughn misses lay-ups. You can’t sit Mahinmi for a loose ball over the back foul because Horry wouldn’t have even tried for the rebound in the first place. Let Tim, Manu, and Tony be the coaches on the floor and they will police and nurture the young guys. It’s time for Pop to channel his inner Phil Jax and sit down, shut the fuck up and let these guys play and figure things out. Make a rotation in pre-season and stick to it for 10, 12 game blocks, making adjustments only for injuries or foul trouble. Otherwise kick your feet back and save the coaching for practices and the month of May. Haphazardly screwing with rotations and destroying a young players’ confidence isn’t what I call “coaching” anyway.

by Aaronstampler on Jul 14, 2008 5:05 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Millsap, Landry and young guys...

You are right on about that. The Spurs used to be known as THE team for draft-day steals (perhaps unjustifiably so since the perception is almost entirely based on Parker and Ginobili… which if you are to gain a reputation on just two drafts, those are pretty strong moves). Do you think the reason the team seems less focused on young talent is because of the win-now mode that comes with Duncan’s advancing age, or is more a symptom of Pop’s fondness for veterans/ disdain for young guys. Either way, the strategy seems flawed since you can win now with some young guys and Pop has shown in the past that he can deal with young talent, as long as the talen has the appropriate ‘attitude’.

As for the young guys angle, it seems there might be a disconnect between the coaching staff and the front office. I mean, it doesnt seem to follow that Pop would ever have a problem coaching guys like Landry, Maxiell, or Millsap. I mean, if Millsap can handle the torment that is playing for Sloan, surely he could handle Pop (and Pop could handle him). I dont know if anyone else feels this way, but every time i see some 2nd round pick putting in meaningful time with another team, I cant help but get a little wistful… The front office isn’t as terrible as some are saying here, but they certainly have missed the boat these last few years…. Tho it’s hard to blame them for the Splitter pick. By all accounts he is a solid player.

by man or pac-man? on Jul 14, 2008 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Supporting Cast

I dont follow the Spurs as closely as you do, but I remember Horry being an integral part of a Spurs championship team. Steve Kerr, was also crucial in one of those championship at the end of his career, when he was nothing more than a three point shooter. What Im trying to say is that some of those players that they acquire for cheap and at the end of their careers some time have huge impacts. The problem is not to realize when to let go.

s

by LasEspuelas on Jul 14, 2008 7:45 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Given the Spurs consistently low drafting position, what could they have done differently in recent years (excluding the bonehead Scola give-away) that would have made them significantly better?

Concerning Pop as coach, is there anyone who you guys would rather have coaching the Spurs?

by 4Him on Jul 14, 2008 8:00 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

And Then Some

Good post. Two additional points: 1. We’ve (and a lot of the media has done this as well) overlooked the weakness of the bench because we include Manu when we look at numbers. Those numbers look pretty damn impressive when you include him. But we all know that’s really an illusion. I think that’s part of why we think the FO’s strategy has been effective. 2. On injuries: let’s not forget that at least the big two (TD and Manu), will get injured more frequently and take longer to heal now that they are in their 30s. That’s a fact of life and needs to be part of the equation.

by agutierrez on Jul 14, 2008 8:26 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I disagree with your point about Popovich

To say hes not that great of a coach b/c he lucked into Duncan, Manu and Tony is false, primarily b/c you can say that about any supposed great coach. Jackson lucked into Jordan, Pippen, Bryant and O’neal, or Auerbach lucked into Russell, Cousy, Jones, Havlicek etc. Great players and great coaches go hand in hand.

You have to give managment a huge amount of credit for getting Ginobili with the 57th pick and developing him into a top 15 player this year.

I do agree that, in some instances, the team values character over talent, sometimes to a fault, but that is what theyre lauded for. The fact that theyve done was well as they have the past nine years with such a poor supporting cast is a real testament to the big three and popovichs ability to assimilate lesser talents off the bench.

Im not terribly upset about the Scola situation, its mostly stings b/c we waited so long for him to be available, but the move was done to preserve that blessed ‘team chemistry” as Scola was an alpha dog his whole career and in SA he wouldnt have been a main low post option….at least that was the spin i read, i guess it wouldnt have been so bad if Spanoulis didnt return to Greece.

good post though, the front office does seem to rely too much on the formulas that produced success in the past, but the keystone that is the big three is aging.

Okay, just so I understand it... in your wildest fantasy, you are in hell. And you are co-running a bed and breakfast with the devil.

by bren on Jul 14, 2008 9:31 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The front office is so…... mediocre.

by SgtinManusArmy on Jul 14, 2008 11:03 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

wasted life in striving for perfection

wow that is a great quote. There are certain people i know who clinically suffer from OCD in a strive for nothing less than perfection (myself included though i’ve never been formally diagnosed) Personally, i get easily overwhelmed by the amount of choice and variety in doing any task and sometimes just mentally curl up in a fetal position and end up not finishing or even starting. A simple decision unable to be decided on because the consequences of “What if…” are overwhelming. But i know that if i just pick one and run with it, everything will be okay because none of the choices are bad. And if one choice is worse than an other, the difference is negligible, and its not worth wasting your life over. Im just starting to learn this but its still tough. The whole manu foul thing is just like this. Being too much of a homer brings out the “perfectionist” in fans (OCD or not) but its like you say, we need to realize that there are a whole slew of other things that could go wrong. There are just too many variables.

I say we run with what we’ve got and make the best of it.

BTW, I totally recommend The Paradox of Choice: Why more is less. by Barry Schwatz

who are you who can summon fire without flint or tinder? there are some who call me ... tim.

by ptruser on Jul 14, 2008 11:44 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh My God....

shut UP…. I’d like to think that the diagnostic manner in which we’re all complaining is something more than complaining. I’ve told people probably upwards of a million times, whether it be spoken word, in writing, or what have you, that winning a championship is as much dumb luck as it is skill and dedication… You HAVE to be in the right place at the right time, and have to have all of the little pieces fall into their slots, or it won’t happen….ever.

If PJ Brown hadn’t hit that jumper in the waning minutes of Game 7 against Cleveland, I can assure you with almost no hesitation that the Celtics would’ve lost. A bucket from a role player is a given during any teams championship run, and I don’t care if any team’s big two or three or five is scoring like hotcakes. Inevitably, Team X is going to run into a situation where a bucket is needed in the worst way, and the person who has the ball is the last goddamn person you’d want. Remember Gary Payton’s circus layup against the Mavs in Game 3? Of course you don’t, and that bucket all but turned the tide of the entire freaking series.

Complaining about how old our role players are is just as worthless an argument as saying that Manu was hurt. Either way, we lost. Nothing can change the fact that things didn’t go our way for the entire WCF. I’d argue that aside from the PHX series, NOTHING went our way. We simply turned up in the Finals, because we found a way to not lose, not because we found a way to win.

I would like all of this nitpicking and, dare I say, whining to stop immediately. Honestly, who cares anymore? It’s over. The ONLY thing we can do is suit up and go for it again next year, regardless of who actually suits up. To pontificate what would’ve happened if we would’ve been in a better set of circumstances, whether it be our roster, our coach, our GM, is a waste of time. Let me draw it out for you:

If the Spurs were better= We win it all

If Popovich were a better coach (not exactly possible…) =We win it all

If we had a different GM= No TP, No Gino, etc. = We’re the goddamn Clippers….

Sports is about luck. We lucked out getting Duncan. We lucked out with TP and Gino. We lucked out that the three have never had season ending, career threatening injuries.

The Mavs lucked out that Ginobili was retarded

The Heat lucked out that the officiating was horrible…in their favor…

The Lakers lucked out that .04 happened…

If all of these things didn’t happen, what would have happened? A ton of useless speculation about what could have been done instead to have won. In other words, a lot of people chasing their tails trying to figure out what would’ve been if anything from one to a million things would’ve gone their way.

If everything goes the Spurs way, we win.

If most things go the Spurs way, we win.

If only a few things go the Spurs way, we win.

Christ, other teams should be so lucky. Who else can say that their team has spent the better part of 12 years winning, even when their team plays like complete and utter shit?

Nobody…

Who else has the privilege of even being able to argue with all the detractors as to whether or not our team is a dynasty?

Nobody…

Does anyone have any idea what we sound like when we delve into all of these glorified excuses?

Fucking Suns fans, that’s what!

I said before in some post that there is a fine line between being experienced, and just being old. No where is that more true than with our team. We simply hung on to some guys for too long, and at different points throughout the season, they started giving out on us. It happens.

It will happen one day with Kobe.

It will happen one day with the last man on the bench of the worst team in the league.

My Point? It happens to everyone, even you and I, at some point. No sense wasting time complaining about inevitabilities.

To cite our problem as our age, and then start singling out players and leaving out others for nonexistent reasons is a waste of time, not to mention a sense of skewed loyalty.

Everyone is so quick to come after Robert Horry, saying that he does nothing, when he contributes far more than Michael Finley or Brent Barry does. To be fair, he seemed more broken down at the end than they did, but at least he wasn’t wasting possessions time and again like Finley.

Aside from the OT forcing three pointer against PHX, Finley contributed, AT BEST, an absolute minimum. He was good for us whenever Pop needed someone to come on the floor and shoot flat jumpers. Oh… wait….

Brent Barry. Not even bring up the fact that he didn’t play for the whole season, the guy wasn’t exactly a star player at all times. Sure, he hit some shots and was goodly enough to actually show up to the WCF, but in the big show you can’t hope to win when your players flicker on and off like some lightbulb in a dingy basement. Barry is just as guilty as anyone on the team because he’s on the team.

Singling out our bench players won’t get anything done. They’re all old, and most of them were woefully misused at different points throughout the season, but that isn’t Pop’s fault. He tried to make the best with what he had, and did a far better job misusing them than most other coaches would using them well. Doc Rivers? Give me a break. That guy was on autopilot the entire season. He isn’t even a coach. He just subscribed to the “They can’t pin anything on me if I don’t actually do anything” school of thought, and ran his superstars all game long.

They weren’t running up the scores, that was Doc Rivers having no fucking clue what was going on, and just leaving his starters out there to ensure a victory. It was very Phil Jackson of him.

I’ve been raning for so long I can’t even remember what I’m saying anymore, but lease stop. It’s pointless now.

Besides, we’ll all get the chance to do it again in a few months. For now, let’s just hope we get enough players who are fun to yell at if we DONT win a ring next season…

by scrappy-doo on Jul 14, 2008 12:06 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Thank you.

Superman wears Manu Ginobili pajamas to bed.

by CMoney on Jul 14, 2008 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

It’s not a bad post per se, Matthew, but when CC agrees with you, you know you’re a being overly dramatic.

I’m still sad that no big moves will be made in this offseason, but come next RS we’ll be right there, rooting for one of the best teams in the league and with good chances of winning another ring. Could be much worse.

by LatinD on Jul 14, 2008 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Me thinks you complain too much.

If you want something to complain about, become a Suns fan. Look at our starting line up. Shaq 37, Hill 36, Nash 34, and look at our bench! D’Antone only used seven players because the bench was either dead or asleep. Sarver, the Suns owner, has one goal and that is to make money. Why do you think they made the terrible Marion for Shaq trade? To sell tickets, pure and simple. We also have a GM that was a bench player for SA and them became a broadcaster. He has managed nothing in his life, not even a Quickstop. He tried to manage the Suns from his mansion in San Diego and when D’Antone told him to butt out, Kerr fired him. Now he has his “Yes Sir!” coach Porter, also a retread from SA.
So, be happy with what you have, you could be a Suns fan.

by TheTruthSquad on Jul 14, 2008 12:48 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

There but for the Grace of God go I...

Catch the Spurs Spirit! It's a Fast-breakin' Fiesta!

by tomasito on Jul 14, 2008 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hate to say it...

...but if you don’t think Pop is a great coach, you’re nuts. If you don’t think the front office is top-notch, you’re nuts. I think it’s wrong to say that Manu’s injury cost them the series. They still COULD have won the series with a healthy Manu, but things didn’t go their way and they didn’t. His injury made their margin for error much slimmer.

If you were to list the skill set of a coach, it would read something like:
1. Motivating your players to play hard on both ends within your system (and this is far and away the most important trait): Pop is awesome at this. I wonder if his stubbornness helps in this regard.

2. Using your substitutions to create advantageous matchups or minimize mismatches: Pop is pretty good, though it took him awhile to figure out Duncan on David West, or to play KT in the Lakers series.

3. Strategery and tactics (drawing up end-of-quarter plays, Hack-a-Shaq, limiting minutes etc.): Pop is recognized as far-and-away the best in the NBA at this (see Charley Rosen, some article I saw in Truehoop about professional gamblers)

4. Developing and improving (young) players: Pop is so-so: Manu and Tony have blossomed from mistake-prone athletes to borderline franchise guys; Devin Brown became useful; Beno hit the skids. We’ll see this year with Mahinmi, Gist, Hill, and Hairston (and Mason, to some extent).

As for the front office, I keep hearing “aside from drafting TD, Tony, and Manu, what else have you done?” That’s like dismissing Bill Gates because he didn’t do anything other than that Microsoft thing. I mean, honestly.

1. The Spurs had an offer from Seattle to trade rookie Duncan for Shawn Kemp. Many thought the Spurs should have taken that offer at the time. Good job, Front Office.

2. Those pesky Sonics then tried to trade Gary Payton for Tony Parker a couple of years later. Public opinion said go for it. Spurs say thanks, but no thanks. Good job, Front Office.

3. The Spurs signed Manu to a lucrative long-term extension. At the time, it seemed kind of expensive, but was a bargain in retrospect.

4. They found Jaren Jackson, Malik Rose, Devin Brown, Stephen Jackson, all of whom contributed to championships. They traded for Antonio Daniels, who helped win the first title. They signed an apparently washed-up Horry, who delivered the 2005 title. They traded for Nazr Mohammed, who despite his skillet hands, was integral for that title.

5. Just as importantly as finding the guys listed above, they didn’t kill their cap space and overpay them when they became too expensive. The biggest mistake a FO can make is not letting a good player go, it’s signing a player long-term for more money than they deserve.

6. OK, Scola was a mistake. But I’m positive the thinking went like this: we’ll return our championship team and let them defend the title. We like Splitter better than Scola, and he’s said he’ll sign with us. We need to clear some cash to sign Splitter, so we need to get rid of Jackie Butler. We can use Scola to do that, plus it would really piss Manu off if we told Scola to go F himself and stay in Europe for the rest of his career.

If they had known Splitter would spurn them, I’m sure they would have signed Scola in a heartbeat. They took a calculated risk, and it didn’t pay off. It happens.

I agree with scrappy, there is just so much luck involved in winning a championship. After a season ends, and the story of the championship is written, people act as though it could not have gone any other way. During the Spurs’ championship years:

1.1999: What if Rasheed Wallace hits a barely-contested 18-foot J in the closing moments of game 1? What if Sean Elliott steps out of bounds, or Wallace gets a piece of his three-ball in game 2?
2. 2003: What if Robert Horry’s potential game-winning three doesn’t rim out in Game 5?
3. 2005: What if RoHo doesn’t play the 20 minutes of his life to close out Game 5?

The Spurs aren’t alone, though. Even the mighty Bulls relied on luck:

After Jordan’s signature pushoff, John Stockton had a wide open three to win the game, but it rimmed out. What if that goes in? What if Steve Kerr or John Paxson miss their jumpers? You figure, no matter how great a shooter you are, you are not going to make 100%.

I agree that the FO and coaching staff made some mistakes, but I am absolutely not on board with any statement remotely resembling “they suck.” We should thank our lucky stars that we have the coaching staff and front office that we do. Shame on you, Powell!

Catch the Spurs Spirit! It's a Fast-breakin' Fiesta!

by tomasito on Jul 14, 2008 12:49 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

+1

Thanks for bringing good balance here…

by 4Him on Jul 14, 2008 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You speak the truth tomasito

Beating the Suns and Hornets, and “only” advancing to the Western Conference Finals isn’t exactly the end of the world.

by Miguel90 on Jul 14, 2008 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I love you guys...

This is a great back and forth. Even through the adversarial positions I see respect and thoughtful dialogue.

As for the front office, all of their decisions must be taken in the context of the market and owner. Peter Holt is a rich man, but he is not Paul Allen. Nor is he alone in his decisions. He works as the figure head of a larger ownership group, all of whom are seemingly dedicated to making the Spurs an integral part of the San Antonio community while also maintaining a profitable position. No easy feat, that. We know this is their goal because McCombs made it explicit in his sale of the team. Keep in mind, Holt was apparently the guy that ultimately put the kaibosh on attempts to woo Spreewell. We are lucky to have such a civic minded group heading up our franchise. (To digress momentarily, I still maintain their business drive got the better of them when they moved the team out of downtown, ignoring their civic mindedness and perhaps blowing it on the business side as well. A downtown location for an entertainment venture will always be a more valuable asset than where they ended up.)

Bottom line though, this ownership group cannot and will not tolerate expenditures over the cap. Not only do they not want to pay the luxury tax, they want to receive the kickbacks from the teams that do pay. And I don’t blame them for that. As long as they continue to put out a good product and show respect to the community, I will support them.

In a way though, I think this makes them better. Perhaps this analogy is a bit strained, but think about Star Wars. The original movie was done on a relatively skimpy budget with a bunch of no-names. They had to use creativity and innovation to finish what is now considered a pop-culture milestone. Fast forward to the prequels, where Lucas had basically unlimited resources at his disposal. Total. Crap. Basically the prequels are the NY Knicks while the original is the Spurs. They must use creativity to fill out a championship caliber roster without going over the cap.

We all see the strategy in recent years was to fill out the role player positions with old vets who were willing to take less money to play with Duncan and Pop and whose drive was entirely focused on the end result. Hard to complain too much since it produced championships in 05 and 07 (and really 99 as well). But now we see the ship is starting to turn. This year is starting to look closer to 03… the one year that the paradigm was shifted and the franshise itself stated it was in a “rebuilding” phase. I for one am excited to see how this new roster looks on the court.

The fact that this strategy worked at all, much less produced, at least arguably, a ‘dynasty’ in a market like San Antonio is pretty incredible. Maybe it is 3 stars and the pupu platter, but the fact that there is a small margin for error is a condition of the Spurs that we will just have to accept. As long as the front office does its best to mitigate that small margin, that may be as much as we can ask for. At the very least its always entertaining to debate.

by man or pac-man? on Jul 14, 2008 2:29 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I like the Star Wars analogy...

Obi-Wan Kenobi = TD
Luke Skywalker = Tony and Manu
The Rancor (Jabba’s pit monster) = Shaq (big and scary, but defeated easily by Luke)
Blue Piano Playing Alien Elephant in Mos Eisley = I don’t know, but I love that guy.
Jar Jar Binks = Stephon Marbury

Catch the Spurs Spirit! It's a Fast-breakin' Fiesta!

by tomasito on Jul 14, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No way. Duncan has to be Luke. He is definitely the central figure in the Spurs universe. He’s even kind of a nerd, just like the young Skywalker.

Manu = Han Solo.

Pop = Obi-wan.

Tony = Princess Leia.

Oberto = Chewbacca

Horry = Lando Calrissian

AJ = Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader (joined the dark side).

by VWolf on Jul 14, 2008 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking of fundamentally sound TD mentoring the immature but talented youngsters, much as wise Obi-Wan mentored immature but gifted young Skywalker. Vader would have to be the Shaq/Kobe duo (seemingly got the better of Obi-Wan, but defeated in the end, largely by internal divisions), and Phil Jackson, being pure evil, is obviously Emperor Palpatine.

Wow, this thread has taken a serious turn for the nerdy.

Catch the Spurs Spirit! It's a Fast-breakin' Fiesta!

by tomasito on Jul 14, 2008 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great, now let’s do the Spurs as Transformer characters.

Tim = Optimus Prime

Manu = Sideswipe

Tony = Bluestreak

by Aaronstampler on Jul 14, 2008 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

C'mon Stampler...

...I know you’re poking fun at our silly Star Wars tangent, but the obvious parallel for Tony would be Sunstreaker, who’s like an inconsistent, arrogant and temperamental version of Sideswipe.

While I’m in full-on dork mode: Jacque Vaughn would be Bumblebee, small, weak, totally useless and always in need of rescue. And Robert Horry would be Kup, telling war stories from before the rest of the team was born.

Catch the Spurs Spirit! It's a Fast-breakin' Fiesta!

by tomasito on Jul 14, 2008 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You’re like officially my favorite poster now. You know that, right?

I’m not so sure about your Sunstreaker analogy. He’s arrogant, but also very vain. In most of the comics Sideswipe isn’t all that well liked either and is very rash and does things without thinking. He has many skills, but acts before thinking sometimes (hence the Manu comparisons). I chose Bluestreak for Tony because in big moments he kinda gets scared sometimes, and but he’s speedy.

I refuse to make any comparisons outside of G1, so screw Kup. Horry can be Ironhide. Old and creaky and willing to play dirty to protect the others.

Finley can be Hound because he can create illusions like Pop thinking he can still play.

Barry can be Ratchet because of the quips.

Bruce can be Trailbreaker because he plays forcefield defense but looks awkward as hell on offense.

Stoudamire is Mirage because he completely disappeared.

Ime is a Dinobot like Snarl or Sludge. Pretty quiet and not good for much, but you don’t want to fuck with him.

Fab is Huffer, he does a lot of dirty work and he’s probably homesick.

Kurt Thomas is Brawn. A bit undersized and old, and not particular special, but stronger than he looks and useful to smash into things.

and Bonner is Windcharger. He’s got a magnetic personality, he’s red, and he’s never involved.

I can’t figure out who Pop is. Primus? Alpha Trion? The ark? Maybe Prowl. An arrogant general who thinks he knows everything…

Yeah. I’m a dork. I promise if you people send me money I won’t blow it on e-bay buying the toys.

(Because I already have them all)

So who’s your favorite Autobot anyway?

by Aaronstampler on Jul 15, 2008 3:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sideswipe, for sure

When I was a kid, I wanted Sideswipe for Christmas. In fact, he was all I wanted for Christmas. I asked my parents: Sideswipe, the red Ferrari (I know he’s a Lamborghini, but I was 6 or 7 at the time). So Christmas morning arrives, I open my present from Santa, and it’s… Sunstreaker! The f*in yellow Lamborghini! Not the same at all! Then the stores move on to G2, and I never was able to get Sideswipe.

One of the first things I did when I got out of college and had a job and some cash was buy Sideswipe on ebay. Then again, and again, so now I have three Sideswipes. I also have Red Alert, who’s exactly the same as Sideswipe, but is white and supposed to be some sort of Fire Chief car. Now all I need is a time machine so I can travel back to 1985 to right the wrong of that terrible Christmas.

As for Pop, I dunno, there’s not a real obvious parallel. Tim’s definitely Optimus, so he’s out. Maybe Pop is the Matrix of Leadership, the driving force behind the team that has existed throughout time. Or maybe he’s Grimlock (from the comics), a dinosaur who becomes the tyrannical leader of the Autobots.

Catch the Spurs Spirit! It's a Fast-breakin' Fiesta!

by tomasito on Jul 15, 2008 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ooh, I like both of those. Except the Matrix retains new knowledge where Pop doesn’t.

Incidentally, while I like Sideswipe, my favorite has always been Jazz. If he was a person, he’d be like Shaft combined with 007. Who wouldn’t like that guy?

Personality wise myself though, I’m afraid I’m more like a combination of Huffer or Prowl,a whiny, complaining, anal, obsessive-compulsive, logical homebody that doesn’t do well in “fun” settings.

by Aaronstampler on Jul 15, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

spurs as voltron characters.

tim = ...i don’t know… the red one?

and then there’s, like, other colors.

you ain't a beauty but hey you're alright.

by kalone on Jul 14, 2008 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that was funny.

Actually, the lion voltron was stupid, but easy to make a dramatic cartoon out of. The vehicle voltron was actually quite cool. You had like 15 small vehicles and they combined to make 3 big vehicles or 1 huge ass robot. A 15 piece gestalt is bitchin’, anyway you slice it. But they couldn’t figure out how to make a good cartoon out of it.

I’m surprised they haven’t done a bloody live action movie out of the lion voltron. They do it with everything else these days.

(P.S. Tim would be the black one. The biggest one in the middle.)

by Aaronstampler on Jul 15, 2008 3:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who would be Admiral Ackbar?...

...I say it would be a coach or front office type that can recognize when someone is trying to trap them in some way (look up “it’s a trap” on YouTube).
Peter Holt saw the potential trap in signing Latrell Sprewell and the like. Pop tries to avoid the traps set by other coaches, such as Phil Jax…
...There, I just set a new standard for nerdiness.

by Gino20 on Jul 14, 2008 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

personally...

I liked Transformers: Beast Wars the best. I’m 25, so I was around for the original lineup, but I was way more into Ninja Turtles and GI Joe… by the time BW came out, my mornings before high school were wide open.

ReBoot was a really good show too… that came on instead sometimes….

by scrappy-doo on Jul 15, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

beast wars was fucking awesome. i was either in elementary or middle school when it came out (i’m 21 now). street sharks was also badass. Ninja Turtles were the best though, watched it all the time according to my parents, it seems i loved them before my memory kicked in as a child. but i WAS a Ninja Turtle for 3 years running for haloween

What the Bowen giveth Horry taketh away. --LatinD (2008 Playoffs Round 2, Game 1)

the Spurs do not defeat you so much as they grind you into tiny shards of psychological wreckage.
-the Denver Post

by Hamer_SpursFan on Jul 15, 2008 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My take

I agree that Popovic and Bufford could have done considerably better improving the team last year.

The strangest thing though was that the Spurs unexpectedly won the entire thing the previous year. That was beyond my expectations considering that with almost the same exact team, they had lost out to Dallas the previous year.

I would account for their 2007 championship to the fact that this was the last hurrah for the veterans. They had to win because there was no tomorrow. But to be perfectly honest, the vets like Horry, Finley and Barry had played inconsistently for all of the playoffs. So I do understand why they kept the 2007 team almost intact. It was a big mistake, but I understand the gamble.

The F.O. is definitely at the top of the league, but these IMHO are their mistakes:

(1) Signing Bonner to a long term deal without testing the market. If it were’nt for that signing we could have signed Scola.

(2) Signing Vaughn. He took playing time away from Beno and he’s honestly a liability both in offense and defense. I can’t understand the bias to play an Avery Johnson 2.0.

(3) Signing Barry over Hedo Turkolu. Certainly Barry was instrumental in beating the Sun’s in 2005, but Turkolu certainly is a more multi-dimensional player.

(4) Not signing Steven Jackson. Let’s get real, Jackson was primarily responsible for the 2003 championship.

(5) Playing Van Exel over Beno even though Exel never delivered the entire season. Fact is, Beno and Barry created a much more dynamic offense in their championship in 2005. (w/c incidentally they got lucky and beat out the pistons because of Horry’s heroics).

Beyond these 5 faux pas, I think the FO has done pretty well considering not being able to draft really high and not having a lot of salary to distribute.

by ceperez on Jul 14, 2008 7:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

1) I agree. And these 6’10” guys who are too slow to drive or play D, and do nothing but shoot the rock from outside are a dime a dozen.

2) I kind of disagree here. Vaughn was never payed much so the signing wasn’t really a problem since they really could just waive him at any time and pick up another minimum guy. Also, Udrih stinks up the court whenever he plays as a backup. That has been true for his entire NBA career (including in Sacto). For whatever reason, he needs to hear his name called out at the begining of the game before he realizes he isn’t supposed to turn the ball over every time he touches it. BTW, I am no fan of JV. I’d much rather have Jason Hart or almost anyone else than him.

3) This looks good in hindsight (given Hedo’s breakout season), but Turkoglu was atrocious in the playoffs as a Spur, and Barry was money.

4) I don’t think the Spurs could have afforded Jackson. The Spurs do not take luxury tax hits.

5) That would be a coaching mistake, and I agree. As bad as Beno is off the bench, he was still probably better than a guy playing with knees that no longer bend.

The main crime of the FO has been tanking the draft every year since 99. Let’s hope they bucked the trend this year.

by VWolf on Jul 14, 2008 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Matt, you are right on. I have been preaching everything you are talking about. Amen!

Pop doesn’t want to deal with any young players
Pop has lost his will to win
Pop has become satisfied with what he has already done and mentally shut it down
Pop is what we call in the military a ROAD, Retired On Active Duty

Timmeh has lost his aggressiveness, his “feather” style layups are pathetic
Timmeh has started drifting away from the basket
Timmeh doesn’t call for the ball any more
Timmeh doesn’t want to fight for position in the post any more
The Spurs aren’t looking for Timmeh’s post game, outside jumpers are the norm now

Manu has lost a step
Manu can no longer elevate
Manu is not as mentally sharp as he once was
Manu goes into turnover funks that produce back to back to back turnovers
Manu has become injury prone, Pop reduced his minutes and he still was hurt

An old bench is ok, an old bench with short players who play the perimeter is not ok
Where is Kevin Wilis, Malik Rose, Will Perdue, Rasto and Nazi?
Going small ball is translation for “saving cash”
We have zero interior defense
Scoring a layup against the Spurs has now become routine
The Spurs have no hops
The Spurs have no athleticism
Do the Spurs even have a bench player that can dunk?

JV and Stoudamire couldn’t dribble, score or defend, but other than that were very reliable
Bonner makes Danny Ferry look like Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Horry is so slow, the Big Show just crossed him over
Fin Fin’s defense is so bad, he gets $1 million a year from being on so many players posters staring at them “skying” by him along the baseline

The stats

Our blocks per game are down from 6.4 in 2004-5 to 4.1 in 2007-2008
Points allowed per game up from 89.3 in 2004-2005 to 91.3 in 2007-2008
Our opponents points in the paint exploded this season, especialy in the playoffs

And for those of you who are trying to sell that we were so close to winning it all last year..
Regular season record against playoff teams 2004-2005: 43-18
Regular season record against playoff teams 2007-2008: 32-29

Ding ding ding ding!! Get it through your skulls that we were not close. We have slipped big time and some body needs to answer for it.

Now that we have established that fact, what can be done?

There are many teams that occasionaly have fire sales on the players, The Clippers, Warriors, Bucks, Hornets, Supersonics, Grizzlies, Hawks….

If you play your cards right (or introduce a mole like the Lakers did), you can make out like a bandit

That is how the Spurs became a power team in the ABA, they got a team owner that was hurting for cash and ripped all his good players away..hey, it’s only business (The Godfather)

Stay away from bringing in the “troubled” player
It often helps in the very near term (Sprewell and Artest), but just as often can have a half decade long fall out (see the Knicks)

Troll your lures into overlooked areas like the D, Euro and South America

Look for players with proven playoff pedigree, stay away from the regular season stat stuffers, while the Spurs were jerking around with Stoudamire, the Celtics brought in Cassell

If all else fails, go the 1998 route, let Timmeh appear to torque his knee, bring Manu along very slowly so he can “recover” from his many injuries and cut Tony’s minutes to about 15 a game under the guise that we are saving him for the playoffs. Play JV huge minutes and make him the primary scorer. Start Bonner in the post. Have Oberto play point gaurd for half the game. Bring in Finlay as the defensive “stopper”. When the playoffs start, Pop and RC can go to the Australian outback and blunt smoke themselves into Nirvana. Every Spur fan takes a nightly bath in tub filled with horse shoes, four leaf clovers and rabbits feet. Then, when the draft lottery comes along, Spur luck strikes again! It has worked twice, hey why not one more time.

by Clintons Cigar on Jul 14, 2008 8:49 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

actually, we didn’t lose 29 games this regular season

by Gino20 on Jul 14, 2008 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do believe this season will fall on Pop. I think the F.O. has done a fine job drafting and the best they could do in free agency. It’s not R.C.’s fault that Magette is content with losing.
Looks like Curious George Hill will reduce JVs minutes to zero and although Ian won’t start; he is of starting calliber. Going from Finley to Roger Mason (do we have a nickname for him yet?) is the biggest upgrade at one position we’ve had since I can remember. And Gist or Hariston could be a pleasant surprise. The only thing more the spurs front office could do at this point is find some way to ship out Bonner.
The players for a championship team are here. It’s up to pop to make efficient use out of them. I know we’re worried that pop hates playing young guys but pop also hates playing his studs more than 34 minutes a game durring the regular season. Somethings gotta give and I say if even by default our draft picks will be very good contributors.

by speedostuffer on Jul 15, 2008 12:17 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

as of right now Roger Mason’s nickname is, i believe, George Mason because i was drunk and wasn’t thinking about what i was writing, and called Curious George “George Mason”. i’m not very creative, so i’ll leave the funny nicknames to the others.

i’m just here to occasionally display some man-love to my boy Manu.

What the Bowen giveth Horry taketh away. --LatinD (2008 Playoffs Round 2, Game 1)

the Spurs do not defeat you so much as they grind you into tiny shards of psychological wreckage.
-the Denver Post

by Hamer_SpursFan on Jul 15, 2008 1:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

possibly at least, it could just be curious george, which i don’t mind until i see him ball in the big league, then he should get a different name. as of now, he’s just a goddamn rook

What the Bowen giveth Horry taketh away. --LatinD (2008 Playoffs Round 2, Game 1)

the Spurs do not defeat you so much as they grind you into tiny shards of psychological wreckage.
-the Denver Post

by Hamer_SpursFan on Jul 15, 2008 1:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

True, our Big Three are not as young as they used to be.
However, since the Celtics won the championship this year, I can’t understand why our Spurs cannot. Our Big Three is definitely one of the best, if not already the best trio in the league. And I actually think our Big Three is the best, even better than the Celtics’s Big Three. But throughout the year and playoffs nobody stepped up from the bench. And Pop just moved Manu to the bench to give the illusion that the bench was alright! Com’n, this cost us the 2008 year. Our Big Three were overloaded, and the bench players (of course here excluding Manu because everyone knows he is actually the starter) were nowhere to see.
Now I hope next year we can really add the young guns Ian Mahinmi George Hill James Gist. Start Manu and Tony because I want to see more of their chemistry. They are the best backcourt in the league no doubt. And I like to see Tim Manu Tony mentoring our young guns and we Spurs improve as a team together. Go Spurs Go!

by senga1021 on Jul 15, 2008 4:37 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

i do like that idea. Limit manu’s minutes a little more than tim and tony, but i definately would like to see them together more often.

What the Bowen giveth Horry taketh away. --LatinD (2008 Playoffs Round 2, Game 1)

the Spurs do not defeat you so much as they grind you into tiny shards of psychological wreckage.
-the Denver Post

by Hamer_SpursFan on Jul 15, 2008 12:04 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Three Studs and a Box of Rocks.

Problem with the salary cap is that without being Lucky in the draft (admittedly harder at draft #27) all you can afford is 3 studs and a box of rocks and our three studs have been better than most of the others, and POP seems to get more out of his box of rocks than the other coaches do. A team depends on their three studs being healthy.

Of course on occasion a team gets more then their alloted quoted of studs. Portland is an example where even though they were able to draft some studs last year, one was hurt and they were able to draft some more studs this year. This will make them a FORCE for a couple of years until they all want to GET PAID. When each has become a stud and the other lesser studs want their slice of the salary cap pie, then they will become the proverbial three studs and a box of rocks too.

by yuccaflatsranch on Jul 15, 2008 1:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good post

I can’t get as worked up as some of you have gotten, but I don’t agree with some of the moves Pop & RC Buford have made. JV shouldn’t in anybody’s top 8. Not trying get more athletic on the wings over the past 2 or 3 seasons has been a mistake as well. Yet, this team was always there competing for chips in the end. Getting a younger rotation doesn’t guarantee a championship. Now I don’t know why Pop was playing Horry during the playoffs or why he farts around with rotations during the season, but ultimately he isn’t going to change and he isn’t going anywhere for awhile. He’s stubborn and not exactly the most forward thinking guy in the game, but he’s still a great coach in my estimation. As Truth Squad mentioned, it could be a lot worse.

It's never just a game when you're winning. - George Carlin

by DennardC on Jul 15, 2008 5:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Luis Scola was huge mistake as well....

I forgot to include him on my disagreements with management.

It's never just a game when you're winning. - George Carlin

by DennardC on Jul 15, 2008 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ehhh

I understand your point, but it’s a shaky one.

1. If Stephen Jackson had taken the good deal the Spurs offered him in ‘04 you would have an athletic wing man. Not Pop or Buford’s fault that he took less money and went to Atlanta.

2. The WCF as well as the series against the Hornets came down to the Spurs missing open shots. Nobody was complaining in the Suns series when all the old “sucks” where hitting everything. Or at the 17-3 record the Spurs started out with last year. Or for that matter 20+ points up in Game 1 of the WCF. The players missed the open shots.

Do the Spurs need to better their team in order to keep up? Yes, no doubt. Pop made some mistakes, no question. Buford can do better, but it comes down to the whole team not doing as well as they could have.

by Big50 on Jul 16, 2008 12:29 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Not true.

The WCF and every other series came down to our opponents dribbling the ball right down the middle of our defense for easy layups and giving up huge offensive rebounds game after game. Our lack of size killed us. Easy layups versus contested jump shots is a no contest. We got our butts kicked by anyone and everyone that was a playoff team during the regular season. Our record against playoff teams in the second half of the season was horrific.

We got by on our will to win against the Hornets and Suns. But, will power and guts (as Rudy T found out in Houston) can’t carry you all the way. You need some size and athletic talent. You can’t let guys rip every rebound. Lets don’t fall into Rudy T’s “Heart of a champion” trap. He kept that shtick going a long time after the Rockets had flamed out and people kept buying it.

by Clintons Cigar on Jul 16, 2008 9:40 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Matthew's take

There’s a lot of truth to what you’ve said. When the Lakers lost Shaq, they were forced to develop their younger players. Turiaf and Vujacic come to mind. The Spurs on the other hand have always tried to fit role players around Tim, Tony and Manu. That has worked to some degree, but the well has gone dry with the advanced ages of Finley, Horry and others. Now we really don’t have any younger players who are ready to contribute with their athleticism. We’ve also been burned by drafting Euros we can’t sign. Scola and now Splitter are busts, essentially wasting our picks from those years. I have a feeling this is the year the wheels come off. By February fans will be screaming for big changes.

by Rick from LA on Jul 16, 2008 11:24 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think you have to look at the picture a little larger. First, Matthew’s list:

1 Tim Duncan was less than 90%.
2 Manu Ginobili was less than 90%.
3 Tony Parker was less than 80%.
4 Bruce Bowen was less than 90%.

Matthew is really stating that going into any season, we are playing the odds above. I think that is only true in hindsight. I think the front office made a lot of decisions with last years roster that went poorly. Include in the above list:
1. Robert Horry would be a zero.
2. Michael Finley would drop precipitously from the year before.
3. Darius Washington would NOT turn out to be a viable back up point guard.
4. Matt Bonner would not improve.
5. Francisco Elson would not improve.
6. Marcus Williams would not give us anything.
7. Ian Mahinmi would not give us anything. (they weren’t expecting him to, but in the 1% chance it could happen it would have been nice)
8. Brent Barry would be hurt.

These are ALL things that contributed to us losing to the Lakers. They all went poorly for the Spurs and we still ended up a Manu injury from competing in the WCF.

This year, with some younger guys, we will still have a list of similar things.
1. Will Ian Mahinmi be able to contribute? He’ll be given a good chance.
2. Will Roger Mason help?
3. Will George Hill displace The JV?
4. Will either of the 2nd round picks give us anything?
5. Will Matt Bonner give us anything?
6. Will Manu get healthy (much less stay healthy)?
7. Will whoever we have yet to sign give us much?

I think the front office gambles every year. Some years it pays off, some it doesn’t. They’ve chased Jermaine O’Neal and Jason Kidd. They have tried to trade for JR Smith. They signed Jackie Butler and Elson. Traded for Kurt Thomas. Spent a year developing Stephen Jackson (do you remember that he was inactive the year before he broke out?). Signed Hedo. Brought in Horry. Brought in Finley. Signed Rasho. Re-signed Malik. Traded a first round pick for Speedy Claxton. Traded for Nazr mid-season. Signed Van Exel. Signed Stoudamire. Etc.

But, through all those deals, they kept us competitive and didn’t crush us with a killer contract. The worst of them all was probably Malik. Then maybe Rasho. But, they were able to make them disappear when they needed to.

My point, if I have one, is you can’t always take the individual deals out of the context of the whole. Including what were other options at the time. We can bash on them for not signing a big free agent, but who’s out there to be had. You can’t just dream up Rashard Lewis at $6 million per on your team. The crazy-ass Magic maxed that fool out. Sure, that created some buzz and they made the playoffs. But that’s not the crazy-ass kind of shit I want my team doing.

Yeah, a lot of the things the front office chose this year didn’t pan out. But that doesn’t make them bad decisions. Every decision the front office makes is a GAMBLE. There is always some percent chance it fails. But, despite a year in which none of their gambles paid off, we were right there chasing the ring. I think we will be right there this year. We have big question marks, but we also have our big 3.

by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Jul 16, 2008 11:51 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks. I thought these were some nice comments, bro

by Gino20 on Jul 16, 2008 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bingo, we have a winner

Leave it to ATS to supply the voice of reason on this topic. How many other NBA owners would like to have our problems? 29? We have a solid core of all-star caliber players, we have a couple of young players in the pipeline (Curious George, Ian (who is in desperate need of a nickname), Splitter (who could still come over in 2 years), Gist, and Hairston) who might contribute, we’ve had a chance to win a title every year for the past decade, and the FO has done all of this without breaking the bank on a stupid signing that would strangle us for years (see: Lewis, Rashard; James, Jerome; Dampier, Erick; et al)

Yes, we need to improve the bench – no question. But I’ll refer to my earlier post: given this year’s cap situation and the pool of free agents, this was not our year to reload. We had to retool and I think there has been a valid attempt at that with the Young Ones, plus Mason. I also suspect that Udoka and Bonner may see a leap in the confidence Pop has in them, as many Spurs do after 1-2 years in the system.

Bottom line: we will be contenders this year and every year until TD heads off to surf full-time. And next offseason, it will be time to look at reloading options.

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." – Aldous Huxley

by spurchief on Jul 17, 2008 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why is it that the voice of reason is always the voice that agrees with your point of view? Powell probably thinks I’m something MUCH different than the voice of reason.

by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Jul 17, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably....

...but you have normally weighed in with rational viewpoints and this one is no exception. I don’t think this position is much different than Powell’s but he is much more indignant about the lack of moves by the FO than you (or I are). I choose to believe that the lack of progress by the FO is not the result of intent, but a lack of opportunities to improve given the parameters of:

1. Don’t exceed the cap
2. Find a guy who fits, chemistry-wise
3. Ability to defend is important
4. Defer to the Big 3 offensively
5. The team has to be contenders every year

Who in the last 3 years of free agency has fit that bill? And as for the draft, while I agree that RC’s rep is overblown in this regard (although a great season by Ian may change that), most rookies don’t make an impact and SA needed immediate impact (see #5 above).

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored." – Aldous Huxley

by spurchief on Jul 17, 2008 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

SA hasn’t needed an immediate impact from the draft until now, or at least the need for immediate impact has become much more pressing now, and that is in part due to many previous poor showings in the draft.

Typically there aren’t many “immediate” guys available by pick #26, but I believe this draft was an exception. There were a few guys still on the board who will likely see some quality minutes this year, or at least would if they were in the right situation. Also, there were some draftees availabe who will likely contribute greatly next season, or the season following

Buford has been given a pass for this decade because of the genius moves of selecting Manu and Tony, back when foreign players were still considered quaint.

by VWolf on Jul 17, 2008 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really doubt we will ever see Splitter in a Spurs uni. His salary is already something like 8 times what it would be if he took a rookie contract. Either he’d have to pass up a ton of money to play for the Spurs, or something would have happened to make his next contract offer in Europe much lower than his current one (injury, arrests, suckitude).

This was not our year to reload, but it was our year to add some competent and energetic (read: not ancient) role players through the draft and free agencey. I like the Mason pickup given what was available, but the drafting of Hill is looking more and more questionable. Hopefully he will get it together, and Gist will turn out to be a diamond in the rough. BTW, I am not optimistic about Hairston making the team. He is not standing out right now and the Spurs have not had a history of signing these NCAA swingmen they draft in the second round (Marcus Williams 07, Romaine Sato 04, Randy Holcomb 02, Bryan Bracey 01, Chris Carrawell 00) .

by VWolf on Jul 17, 2008 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The other option for Splitter...

...is the NBA creates a provision so that teams can sign furriners for more than the current rookie scale. Maybe after, say, 2 years you could pay a draft pick for whom you still had rights whatever you wanted to. Seems far-fetched, but when high picks start heading overseas for more lucrative contracts, the NBA will have to do something.

It’s already starting—first Splitter, now the likely #1 pick (Brandon Jennings) skipping college to go play in Europe. What if he gets a big contract offer and just stays there? And other players start to follow suit?

Catch the Spurs Spirit! It's a Fast-breakin' Fiesta!

by tomasito on Jul 17, 2008 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That wouldn’t be a bad idea, but I doubt the players’ association would go for it. At first it seems like it might be in their interest to allow higher salaries for NBA players, but since these increased salaries would only be given to foreign players, and the union is dominated by Americans, they might not allow it. You could imagine a situation where a Maggette like player was only given the MLE (instead of being overpaid by Golden State) since foreign players took up too much of the available salary space. The agents of the Maggettes of the league will probably tell them to vote against giving foreign players any sort of salary advantage.

Maybe what the NBA will have to do is increase their pay scale for guaranteed salaries, such that they are competitive with foreign salaries. That would undoubtedly make some teams (probably the Spurs) want to skip the first round every season and it would make picking a bust a critical blunder.

This is a tough problem. Maybe the NBA will have to content itself with less foreign players and cope with any American defections (though I still bet Brandon Jennings will end up in the NBA).

by VWolf on Jul 17, 2008 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Give Hill a chance

He’s going to be a solid player.

by 4Him on Jul 17, 2008 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Manu is all of us and we are all Manu

Not sure if you already seen this two new commercials

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXfDwEhc_gk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXOAZJvEEXA

the second makes fun of the idea that Manu’s shot in against serbia in the last olympics and play that was prepared. Hilarious

by minibasket on Jul 17, 2008 8:48 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hey, you need to put this in the fanshots section so people see it.

by Wayne Vore (ATS) on Jul 17, 2008 10:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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