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ESPN confirms obvious: Ray Allen is a nancy boy deserving your general scorn and derision

ESPN has once again run out of story ideas, and they have resorted to play the reliable "let's make a list of great NBA shooting guards/players/competitors/gamblers/personalities/assholes and pretend Jordan is not a lock for the top spot" card.

The results are a trifle baffling to me.  George Gervin is the 4th best shooting guard of all time?  Really?  He's famous for two things:  the finger roll and never, ever, EVER playing defense.

More than any other position, a discussion of shooting guards rarely, if ever, involves defense.  For instance, the nearly insufferable duo of Mark Jackson and Jeff Van Gundy got into a Manu Ginobili vs. Tracy McGrady debate during the recent Spurs vs. Suns telecast.  Defense was not mentioned a single time.  It's half the game last time I checked; seems to warrant mentioning.

According to ESPN's panel of experts*, Tracy McGrady is the 17th best shooting guard of all time, two spots ahead of Manu.  20th on the list is nancy boy Ray Allen.  Yes, thank you, can I have some more.

*Sports is the only field where participation qualifies you as an expert.  Botanical experts are people who study plant life, academics with botany PhDs.  Your grandma, despite the beauty of her gardenias, is not an expert.

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Re: ESPN confirms obvious:
this comments thread is dripping with potential...
I wonder how hollinger's rankings went down in this. half the top 10 list weren't even ranked by him if i'm reading it correctly

by booth52 on Mar 11, 2008 2:00 PM CDT   0 recs

Re: ESPN confirms obvious:
I thought the same thing about Hollinger's rankings... it's a shame they don't give the complete rankings for each expert.

By the way, our friendship went to another level when you finally admitted (some time ago) that Ginobili was better than Allen.

I'm not even joking.

And I'm not gay.

ok.

by Matthew Powell on Mar 11, 2008 2:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: ESPN confirms obvious:
but he took it back quickly, if I do recall. ... Although by now it should be clear that it's past time to re-take it back--Ray is not at Gino's all-around level right now.

by Gino20 on Mar 11, 2008 9:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: ESPN confirms obvious:
Did he take it back?  Hmm.  You may be right.  I reserve the right to remove his picture from my bedside.

by Matthew Powell on Mar 11, 2008 9:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: ESPN confirms obvious: Ray Allen is a nancy b
Two weeks ago Van Gundy said Manu was definitely the 2nd best shooting guard in the league. Then last week he put McGrady there (I thought he was a SF?) and said that there's no way Manu could've led Houston to 19 wins in a row.

So yeah, better off not paying attention to these guys. It'll just drive you crazy.

P.S. I think I'm gonna write somethin' tonight. Late tonight.

by Aaronstampler on Mar 11, 2008 2:35 PM CDT   0 recs

Re: ESPN confirms obvious:
Don't tease us Aaron...as I will be up late looking at porn which isn't unusual for me; but I will now be anxiously checking the site for your latest column!

by adam8065 on Mar 11, 2008 4:35 PM CDT   0 recs

I think that the Iceman's #4 ranking
is just about right. No, he's not known for defense, but he was one of the few absolutely unique players in NBA history. The statistics are obvious: 26,595 career points, an incredible streak of scoring double figures in 407 consecutive games, 12 straight All-Star games, a .511 career shooting percentage as a guard [not even MJ could top that]. He was the best offensive producer I've ever seen.

But more than all the stats, Gervin transcended the way the game was played. He redefined the SG position when he moved from forward to become the first big [read: tall and very skinny] guard to excel at the position. He was so smooth, and made seemingly-impossible shots look easy. You had to see it to believe it. Even when the Spurs were only run-and-gun with no defense they were so fun to watch, and mainly b/c of Gervin. Absolutely no one ever had the arsenal of shots that the Iceman did. And he also has one of the all-time greatest nicknames.  

Maybe the greatest testimony to Gervin's greatness comes from the man who is #3 on the all-time SG list - Jerry West. West said this about Ice: "He's the one player I would pay to see." There you have it. Other than the top three, who would you rank higher?

P.S. In glancing through the list, I noticed that the anti-foreigner bias is as strong as ever. Both Manu and Drazen Petrovic should be much higher on the list.

by 4Him on Mar 11, 2008 6:03 PM CDT   0 recs

A quick Ice story...
I must have been about 13 or 14 years old when I went to a Spurs game at the old Hemisfair arena. We arrived long before the start of the game, so I went down to courtside to get a close-up of the players warming up, though only a couple of the Spurs were on the court at the time. One of them was the Iceman. As he was shooting and hitting jumper after jumper [mostly bank shots], he suddenly noticed that I was watching him  [probably with my jaw on the ground]. So as he stood on the right side out by the three-point line, he continued hitting bank shot after bank shot as he kept his eyes focused on me the whole time! He had me at 'Hello'.

by 4Him on Mar 11, 2008 6:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: A quick Ice story...
Nice story. Very cool.

by LatinD on Mar 11, 2008 7:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: ESPN confirms obvious: Ray Allen is a nancy b
While the Iceman stories are endearing and obviously true, they do not address the fundamental point: is being a shooting guard only about offense? If there is some consensus that it is, then fine, list away. Certainly no one will argue that probably a good 98% of pundits, commentators, "experts", only consider offense when rating all NBA players, with the occasional exception of center. Yet, those same gasbags will also tell you that championships are won with defense and never make the connection with their own skewed analysis. In fact, you can take it a step further: look at any player in terms of the whole package. Shooting, passing, assists, rebounds, defense, leadership, free throw shooting, hussle, competitiveness, performance in crunch time. Sure, each position makes different demands. But all positions require defense if the team is to be successful. And perhaps most importantly, all players realize that their defense will not put them on the highlight reel or get them to the All Star game or the giant contract. So few work at it. That's what makes guys like Timmy and Manu so damn special. Kobe? He plays good defense WHEN HE FEELS LIKE IT! Well, fuck that. Lebron ... please! Yet they're the face of the NBA. Now how fucked up is that!

by agutierrez on Mar 11, 2008 7:26 PM CDT   0 recs

In principle
I agree with you, and that's why the three guys at the top of the list have to be ahead of Gervin [especially when you factor in championships]. But when you consider the guys below him, where are the great defenders? [And for that matter, where are the championships?] Clyde Drexler would certainly be in the discussion as a solid two-way player who won a couple of titles, but the Iceman far surpassed him on the offensive end.

By the time Manu finishes, he should be near the top, though he will have played less years than most of the other greats. I wish that the Spurs would have brought him over to the team in 2001-02 [or even the year before that]. In the playoffs against the Lakers those years, we really needed someone who could fearlessly penetrate and take the ball to the hole, and even though Manu would have been raw in some ways, he would have had the courage to take it to the rack against those guys [as he proved in '03]. How much of a difference it would have made in those two series I don't know. The other peeve that I have about that Laker three-peat is that TD wasn't able to play in the 2000 playoffs. I would have loved for us to take the Lakers out that year on the way to defending the title.  

by 4Him on Mar 11, 2008 8:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: ESPN confirms obvious
watching a fearless 23 year old Gino play against the Lakers in 2001 would be amazing!

by adam8065 on Mar 11, 2008 9:18 PM CDT   0 recs

Re: ESPN confirms obvious
I would pay $1000 I don't have to give him his leaping ability back.

by Matthew Powell on Mar 11, 2008 9:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: ESPN confirms obvious
the highlights would look prettier, the stats would be worse. He wouldn't shoot so many threes if he could dunk on everybody. Manu's so good now because he's had to evolve his game, he's had to adjust.

The guy who could just cram it on everyone wouldn't be the cold blooded killer that Manu is.

by Aaronstampler on Mar 12, 2008 12:14 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: ESPN confirms obvious
I remember Matthew fearing a bit of a demise for Gino a while back because he's kinda gimpy. Matty said b/c Manu had lost a lot of explosiveness, he may never be the same player again. Then he talked about how 'twas a sight to see the man they call Manu in those 2005 Playoffs.
Anyway, I'm glad he still is the the great player he was. Check that--a BETTER player than he has ever been.
(For my money, Manu was one of the top 5 NBA performers throughout the course of those playoffs. My 5: Duncan, Wade, Nash, Amare, Ginobili. Not in the playoffs that year: KG, LeBron, and Kobe. T-Mac played great vs. Dallas but you don't make my Top 5 if you are bounced out of the first round)

by Gino20 on Mar 12, 2008 8:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

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