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Throwing Michael Finley Under the Bus

In his Toronto recap, stampler brought to our attention some laudatory words directed to the Spurs by ESPN stats guru John Hollinger.  Stampler did a great job in responding to it all, and like him, I definitely think the 04-05 team is better than this current version.  Manu's playing great right now, but he was considerably better during those playoffs.

There's one specific Hollinger comment I would like to respond to:

On its face this sounds absurd, I realize -- isn't winning the whole point? But as I've been trying to beat into people's heads over and over again, point differential is a better indicator of future success than won-loss record. In other words, if you were trying to pick a game between the Mavs and Spurs tomorrow, you'd be better off ignoring the standings and looking just at point differential.

He's right about point differential being a better indicator of future success.  But by success he does NOT mean "who has the best chance to win the title."  He means, and yes I'm putting words into his mouth, if the Spurs and Dallas were to play the same 100 game schedule starting now, the Spurs are the better pick to win more games because they have the better point differential.

But, obviously, a seven game series between the two teams is a whole other enchilada.  30 point blowouts against the Raptors mean little when the Spurs simply have trouble matching up against DAL.  

Before I go on I want to apologize for what I am about to do... which is piss in everyone's Cheerios.  The Spurs are playing ridiculously well right now, and my confidence is definitely growing with each win.  But I have come across some interesting data I wanted to share.

Let's move on to some other, more fun stats.  Player pairs from 82games.com.  The simplicity behind these numbers (which are through the All Star break) belies their hypnotic powers.  There's a lot of info here; info that I'm in the middle of parsing.  Let's a take a look at the main table, and I'll provide some explanations.

First, take a look at the blue diagonal numbers.  That's the point differential per 48 minutes for the individual player.  For example, for every 48 minutes Parker plays, the Spurs outscore their opponents by 8 points.  

Let's stay with the Parker row and move to the right under Beno.  The table shows +3:  for every 48 minutes Beno and Parker are on the court together the Spurs outscore opponents by 3 points.  Therefore Parker plays better without Beno than with him.  This relationship, where Player B (Beno) theoretically "makes" Player A (Tony) worse, is designated with a white background.  Moving down the Beno column you can see that the only players he "makes" better are Bowen, Oberto and Elson.  This is designated by a green background.  Of course, allow me to point out the obvious; it's hard to make players better when you're replacing Tony Parker.

A quick look at the table leads to some not-so-startling conclusions:  

  1.  Every Spur plays better with Manu than without him.
  2.  The same can be said for Timmeh.
  3.  Finley makes everyone, except Bonner, worse.  Part of this has to do with his backing up Manu (though over 30% of his minutes occur with The Sickness on the floor), and part of his to do with the fact Finley sucks ass.
If you scroll down the page you will see that 82games.com breaks down each player pair into great detail.  The analysis possibilities are nearly endless.  I've taken the time to filter out some interesting and meaningful tidbits.  First, the ten most effective players pairs per 48 minutes, with a minimum of 90 minutes of playing time.

Uhh.  There's a certain Frenchman whose name is conspicuously absent.  Monsieur Parker does come in at number 11 (paired with Ginobili), but he only appears 3 times in the top 20.  The only name that doesn't appear?  Michael Finley.

Of course no top 10 list is complete without it's counterpart:  the ten least effective player pairs.

Jesus; did Jacque sleep with Barry's wife or something?  -23.3 points per 48 minutes?  In Tony's defense, his name isn't on this list, either.  Barry's on there 4 times; Finley 5.  But these numbers can mislead if you're not careful... you need to look closer to understand how colossally bad Finley has been.

The Spurs are +3.5 per 48 minutes with Finley on the court (through today).  They are +12.3 when he's off the court.  That's -8.8 points per 48 minutes.  The question is how bad is that?  There's one quick way to check.  How many other NBA players who play at least 40% of their team's minutes have a worse net +/-?

  1.  Ryan Gomes, Boston, 64% of minutes, -10.9 net +|-.
  2.  Hakim Warrick, Memphis, 51% of minutes, -10.2 net +|-.
  3.  Gary Payton, Miami, 42% of minutes, -14.2 net +|-.
  4.  Kenny Thomas, Sacramento, 44% of minutes, -9.3 net +|-.
  5.  Andrei Kirilenko, Utah, 55% of minutes, -8.9 net +|-.
That's the whole list.  Two of those guys are youngsters playing on teams going nowhere (in other words, you can take the time to see what you have).  Everyone except Pat Riley knew Payton was done.  Kirilenko is young, playing out of position and actually led his team in net +|- last year (in other words, Sloan has reason to believe he'll improve).

Michael Finley is NOT one of the worst players in the NBA.  However, he is one of the most detrimental players in the league.  The key to the Spurs title hopes may be finding a way to keep him off the floor.  And against the likes of PHX and DAL they won't be able to do that.  And THAT is why I have been championing James White (who would, if nothing else, shoot less); why I took the Spurs to task for not acquiring Maggette when they had the chance.  While a solution may not be obvious, the problem is, and the problem is Michael Finley.  And from what I can tell the Spurs aren't doing much to address it.  Unless encouraging him to shoot more is considered addressing the problem.

One last comment:  Nick Van Exel's net +|- last year?  -8.9.  Finley's at -8.8 right now.  God help us.

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Re: Throwing Michael Finley Under the Bus
But these numbers only go through the All-Star break, and hasn't Finley suddenly discovering how to shoot again a notable portion of why, since the break, we've been blowing team's out?  I'd like to see the numbers since the break, but I'd guess they're much better for Finley.

Shooting is obviously the major reason for Finley to play.  For his career he shoots .446.  But this season he shoots .394, a significant downturn.  Over the last three games, he has shot 0.557.  With a larger sample size, over the last 15 games (according to this article) he's shooting .442, much closer to his career average.  It's not implausible to think he can maintain that, and if so, that would be the source of optimism for Spurs fans.

by jrduncans on Mar 5, 2007 5:49 AM CST   0 recs

Re: Throwing Michael Finley Under the Bus
Great research! I do have to say that Finley has been playing a lot less lately which might have to do with the winning streak. And here is a good article about Finley.

"With Ginobili now coming off the bench, Finley typically doesn't play until the start of the second quarter. His minutes in the second half have been determined not only by his performance, but also by that of Bruce Bowen and Brent Barry. "

The only thing I don't like about the article is this comment "He knows he has the green light and if he catches the ball, he's looking to score," Popovich said. "Not do anything else, but score."  

Well that is easier said than done, Finley should only be given the green light once he makes a couple of jumpers not everytime he touches the ball like Pop says!

Here is article:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA030507.01D.Spurs.325bc5b.html

by adam8065 on Mar 5, 2007 11:57 AM CST   0 recs

Re: Throwing Michael Finley Under the Bus
Hmm... Bowen's at third place on your pretty colored chart there, behind Duncan and Ginobili... only Finley and Horry are negative with him.  Perhaps we're a bit premature in declaring him ready for retirement.
chaos... panic... pandemonium... my work here is done.

by rick2g on Mar 5, 2007 2:43 PM CST   0 recs

Re: Throwing Michael Finley Under the Bus
Yeah; FireBatMTV (sp?) pointed out, via some 82games.com stats, that all may not be as it seems with Bowen.  I am more guilty than anyone of writing him off.

I am definitely right about Finley though.  He sucks the balls.

by Matthew Powell on Mar 5, 2007 4:51 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Throwing Michael Finley Under the Bus
you've briefly touched on it, but finley's on/off court minutes would seem to most directly impact, not so coincidentally, manu and bowen's minutes.  i mean, those are the guys who he subs for most of the time, no? (where would you find this on 82 games?) Could his suckiness be padding manu and bowen's impresive +- numbers and help explain oddities of bowens numbers when compared to the knee jerk impressions of bowen when watching him?  trade him to miami and have him strictly sub in only for GP, would GP's numbers drastically be effected? (affected?)

this topic has been analyzed in various other forums (i read a bunch of apbr threads with regards to the value of +- analysis; it eventually gave me a headache)  but you can see that it's effectiveness in a broad scale analysis of a player is folly, especially in combo with a simple minded imbecile like me doing the thinking.  don't get me wrong, when you are aware of it's limitations/signifances, it can reveal lots, as  matt's done here.

honestly, what the fuck is going on with kirilenko?  is he still a good player? was he ever? He seems like an ideal trade possiblity on the cheap after this year to the right team who would implement his unique talents in his more natural role/position.

by booth52 on Mar 5, 2007 7:56 PM CST   0 recs

Re: Throwing Michael Finley Under the Bus
I think Pop protects Bruce a lot by playing him almost exclusively with Timmy and Tony.  I mean look at his total minutes and his total minutes with those guys.  When he doesn't play with Tim his +/- is negative.  

As for Kirilenko, I'd love to have him but that's never gonna happen.  For one he has a huuuuuge contract (kinda overpaid actually) and two they wouldn't trade for him unless we gave them Manu.  And I don't want to.  

by Aaronstampler on Mar 5, 2007 8:26 PM CST   0 recs

Re: Throwing Michael Finley Under the Bus
The main thing I like about Matthew's post is that it's exhibit 254 why Le Trou Noir is only the team's third best player.  

by Aaronstampler on Mar 5, 2007 8:28 PM CST   0 recs

Re: Throwing Michael Finley Under the Bus
It is bewildering how much Pop loves Finley.  I feel like Pop had an easier time contemplating trading Drob than he does benching Finley.

Ugh.  There seems to be this unspoken feeling that the Spurs have to handle Finley with kid gloves because he took less money to come here.  What a joke.  The money he makes from Mark Cuban is probably more than the whole GNP from the country of Cuba.  If he's such a professional he should understand getting benched when you don't play well.  Sounds simple enough.

Not only was signing Finley bound to create a logjam of old players, the other downsize is that young players can't get any time to develop.  Its like we're sacrificing our Big Three's prime together to play an old sucky player who is on the downturn of his career.

I'm not saying White is the savior but you know the reason Pop doesn't play him is because it would be too much of a slap in the face to Finley (and Barry too).  I'd think it would be competition.

Hopefully a lot of our geezers can play the Steve Smith/Kerr role next year and sit on the bench and act as mentors to...someone.

by Jones on Mar 5, 2007 11:17 PM CST   0 recs

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